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Enrollment is down ~ 20 % this year at my regional institution, even at community colleges, which usually experience an upswing in enrollment during recessions

Enrollment is down ~ 20 % this year at my regional institution, even at community colleges, which usually experience an upswing in enrollment during recessions enrollment is down. Even at top-100 institutions, like the University of Vermont, enrollment is down ~ 20 %. Must be a good year to get into Harvard or Stanford. There's also the secular trend of decreasing student numbers, the echo of the baby boom is wearing off. It's bad. Neither party has a political response to the coronarecession, public institutions had their funding cut severely because states can't print money, they have to balance their budgets. Private institutions will drop dead like bogflies. Ordinarily one wouldn't cry for any of the many low-ranked sectarian colleges that will bite the dust, but their faculty will compete in the labour market. And no political response is to be seen. Traditionally, under Democratic leadership the science budget is bigger, but we haven't heard anything about that from the incoming Harris-Biden administration. It's really bad and makes you want to vote Republican because of protectionism and reduced immigration. The only safe funding now is soft money.

seibelj 6y ago
Universities became bloated over the decades as federally guaranteed loans ballooned and tuition creeped ever upwards. Assistant to the Assistant Dean of Water Aerobics positions multiplied. Now universities have to operate like a business. Revenue is down and isn’t going to come back for a long time. Consolidation for the lucky and bankruptcy for the unlucky. Honestly it’s a good thing to happen, the sector produces way too much nonsense (we don’t need more papers on 19th century fiction authors that no one reads but other academics) and costs far too much. Society simply doesn’t need this waste anymore with the internet able to provide esoteric knowledge to the masses for free. I’m fine with my tax dollars funding fundamental scientific research, but an online study group can enable people to study the classics and debate what it means to be a good person. A lot of these majors should not be funded by the state anymore.
- wbl 6y ago
  Those papers you deride aren't what college professors mostly produce. What they should produce are citizens via the study of what great minds have thought in the past. The increasing narrowness of scholarship has destroyed the liberal arts.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    Totally agree, but I also think the same curriculum can be provided at a fraction of the cost of a 4 year degree. We can produce thinking, reflective people for less than $200k in tuition.
    - stanrivers 6y ago
      State schools FTW; if you are the top 5% of your average state school, you are going to match the top 5% of your Ivy League students. Make sure you are taking advantage of all the opportunities that the state schools offer, push yourself a bit more than you think you can, and you will be prepared for whatever career path. Plus, you’ll have the added benefit of a chip on your shoulder wanting to prove you are as good as those colleagues that paid 200k. Chips on shoulders put chips in pockets.
  - nrdvana 6y ago
    Dunno... an english professor where I went to college listed his primary research on his faculty website as “determining from the writings of Mark Twain whether he was gay”. I often wonder how much of my tax dollars went toward that. On the whole I have a low opinion of the “english” department, since they get to study a blend of communication, philosophy, psychology, history and so on without ever contributing concrete advancements to any of those fields. For instance, it took all of one month of my first job before I realized that the essay format was a completely ineffective way to communicate (tl;dr) and learned a completely new bullet-point-driven style that would actually deliver ideas to the intended recipient. I taught myself; it would have been nice if the people who study communication for a living actually knew the best way to communicate ideas to others and could have taught me that. Instead they basically taught me the most artistically pleasing way to communicate with other english majors. I’m also generally irked by the english major attitude that there are no wrong answers and every interpretation is equally valid. This attitude prevents them from ever making useful advances at anything.
    - mola 6y ago
      Bullet points deliver a certain kind of message, superficial and simplistic. These type of studies are not meant for advancement, they are meant for reflection and sense making.
- currymj 6y ago
  The science departments produce even more nonsense that nobody reads or cares about. It's hard to tell in advance. Plus you want a strong research culture even if not all of it is directly productive. I also think people tend to underestimate the positive externalities of the humanities departments. (Nobody reads academic history mostly, but the existence of historians makes bullshit claims more difficult.) I think your proposed study groups would work at first, but eventually wouldn't be able to sustain themselves as the scholarly communities providing the background vocabulary and paradigms you need to even have a conversation collapsed.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    I agree there is a ton of BS produced in science as well, but if we are making a pecking order then I would defund hard science last. I still don’t see why there should be no creativity. Left to their own devices the university system has produced worse product at higher prices for decades. The time has come for innovation.
    - currymj 6y ago
      i think you are failing to see the value — much of what the academic community produces is a public good. i agree there are huge problems with higher education, but I think if all humanities departments were disbanded as you suggest, you would miss them after they were gone. Look at how terrible and shallow a lot of journalism and popular nonfiction is. Imagine if that was the highest level of thought available on most topics. Nothing but Medium posts forever.
      - seibelj 6y ago
        You are asking me to debate a straw man - “The only alternative to $200k a year to study English is no humanities at all”. I think if universities were forced to innovate, the same value and product can be provided at a vastly cheaper price. We shall see if I’m right, as there aren’t any alternatives.
        6y ago
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  online study group can enable people to study the classics An online study group can replace Shackleton Bailey? That's just nuts. Literature requires deep study (and perhaps we shouldn't foist it on every last kid seeking a paid career in nursing, but that's a different topic).
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Federal money was just one of basically 3 co-equal causes for tuition inflation. The other 2 are 1) drastic reductions in states funding their state colleges As a result of that, there's 2) the arms race to have the newest and shiniest facilities and amenities for students so they can compete to raise enrollment and get more revenue.
  - mola 6y ago
    In other words, forcing universities to operate as businesses thus puting most of their effort in marketing and shiny crap. Competition is not always good.
- mola 6y ago
  The internet doesn't create knowledge you know. This esoteric knowledge comes from these academics. If you kill the humanities, your entire colture will be defined by what ever sells, and religion. Good luck with that.
friendstock 6y ago
"Joe Biden, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, has rolled out campaign proposals over the past month that include major increases in federal R&D spending, with a focus on clean energy and emerging technologies." https://www.aip.org/fyi/2020/biden-and-harris-envision-ambitious-rd-and-climate-action https://www.aip.org/fyi/2020/biden-and-harris-envision-ambit...
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  Everyone wants to see firm commitments on the NIH and NSF budgets. The article here is just wishy-washy with bits of social justice thrown in. It's not what's required, we need industrial policy.
NotSammyHagar 6y ago
I believe you are wrong that there would be no response from democrats, and that republicans might be better. Democrats will fund education traditionally, and that hasn't changed. They are the ones pushing to give federal funding support to keep state and local governments operating and reduce potential massive cuts. The republican senate is strongly against this direction; the president wants to give unemployment boosts but doesn't want to help 'blue states'. He's not too keen on education either. I agree the situation is terrible and private colleges should be dying off rapidly.

seibelj 6y ago

Universities became bloated over the decades as federally guaranteed loans ballooned and tuition creeped ever upwards. Assistant to the Assistant Dean of Water Aerobics positions multiplied. Now universities have to operate like a business. Revenue is down and isn’t going to come back for a long time. Consolidation for the lucky and bankruptcy for the unlucky. Honestly it’s a good thing to happen, the sector produces way too much nonsense (we don’t need more papers on 19th century fiction authors that no one reads but other academics) and costs far too much. Society simply doesn’t need this waste anymore with the internet able to provide esoteric knowledge to the masses for free. I’m fine with my tax dollars funding fundamental scientific research, but an online study group can enable people to study the classics and debate what it means to be a good person. A lot of these majors should not be funded by the state anymore.

wbl 6y ago
Those papers you deride aren't what college professors mostly produce. What they should produce are citizens via the study of what great minds have thought in the past. The increasing narrowness of scholarship has destroyed the liberal arts.
- seibelj 6y ago
  Totally agree, but I also think the same curriculum can be provided at a fraction of the cost of a 4 year degree. We can produce thinking, reflective people for less than $200k in tuition.
  - stanrivers 6y ago
    State schools FTW; if you are the top 5% of your average state school, you are going to match the top 5% of your Ivy League students. Make sure you are taking advantage of all the opportunities that the state schools offer, push yourself a bit more than you think you can, and you will be prepared for whatever career path. Plus, you’ll have the added benefit of a chip on your shoulder wanting to prove you are as good as those colleagues that paid 200k. Chips on shoulders put chips in pockets.
- nrdvana 6y ago
  Dunno... an english professor where I went to college listed his primary research on his faculty website as “determining from the writings of Mark Twain whether he was gay”. I often wonder how much of my tax dollars went toward that. On the whole I have a low opinion of the “english” department, since they get to study a blend of communication, philosophy, psychology, history and so on without ever contributing concrete advancements to any of those fields. For instance, it took all of one month of my first job before I realized that the essay format was a completely ineffective way to communicate (tl;dr) and learned a completely new bullet-point-driven style that would actually deliver ideas to the intended recipient. I taught myself; it would have been nice if the people who study communication for a living actually knew the best way to communicate ideas to others and could have taught me that. Instead they basically taught me the most artistically pleasing way to communicate with other english majors. I’m also generally irked by the english major attitude that there are no wrong answers and every interpretation is equally valid. This attitude prevents them from ever making useful advances at anything.
  - mola 6y ago
    Bullet points deliver a certain kind of message, superficial and simplistic. These type of studies are not meant for advancement, they are meant for reflection and sense making.
currymj 6y ago
The science departments produce even more nonsense that nobody reads or cares about. It's hard to tell in advance. Plus you want a strong research culture even if not all of it is directly productive. I also think people tend to underestimate the positive externalities of the humanities departments. (Nobody reads academic history mostly, but the existence of historians makes bullshit claims more difficult.) I think your proposed study groups would work at first, but eventually wouldn't be able to sustain themselves as the scholarly communities providing the background vocabulary and paradigms you need to even have a conversation collapsed.
- seibelj 6y ago
  I agree there is a ton of BS produced in science as well, but if we are making a pecking order then I would defund hard science last. I still don’t see why there should be no creativity. Left to their own devices the university system has produced worse product at higher prices for decades. The time has come for innovation.
  - currymj 6y ago
    i think you are failing to see the value — much of what the academic community produces is a public good. i agree there are huge problems with higher education, but I think if all humanities departments were disbanded as you suggest, you would miss them after they were gone. Look at how terrible and shallow a lot of journalism and popular nonfiction is. Imagine if that was the highest level of thought available on most topics. Nothing but Medium posts forever.
    - seibelj 6y ago
      You are asking me to debate a straw man - “The only alternative to $200k a year to study English is no humanities at all”. I think if universities were forced to innovate, the same value and product can be provided at a vastly cheaper price. We shall see if I’m right, as there aren’t any alternatives.
      - 6y ago
HarryHirsch 6y ago
online study group can enable people to study the classics An online study group can replace Shackleton Bailey? That's just nuts. Literature requires deep study (and perhaps we shouldn't foist it on every last kid seeking a paid career in nursing, but that's a different topic).
ineedasername 6y ago
Federal money was just one of basically 3 co-equal causes for tuition inflation. The other 2 are 1) drastic reductions in states funding their state colleges As a result of that, there's 2) the arms race to have the newest and shiniest facilities and amenities for students so they can compete to raise enrollment and get more revenue.
- mola 6y ago
  In other words, forcing universities to operate as businesses thus puting most of their effort in marketing and shiny crap. Competition is not always good.
mola 6y ago
The internet doesn't create knowledge you know. This esoteric knowledge comes from these academics. If you kill the humanities, your entire colture will be defined by what ever sells, and religion. Good luck with that.

friendstock 6y ago

"Joe Biden, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, has rolled out campaign proposals over the past month that include major increases in federal R&D spending, with a focus on clean energy and emerging technologies." https://www.aip.org/fyi/2020/biden-and-harris-envision-ambitious-rd-and-climate-action https://www.aip.org/fyi/2020/biden-and-harris-envision-ambit...

HarryHirsch 6y ago
Everyone wants to see firm commitments on the NIH and NSF budgets. The article here is just wishy-washy with bits of social justice thrown in. It's not what's required, we need industrial policy.

NotSammyHagar 6y ago

I believe you are wrong that there would be no response from democrats, and that republicans might be better. Democrats will fund education traditionally, and that hasn't changed. They are the ones pushing to give federal funding support to keep state and local governments operating and reduce potential massive cuts. The republican senate is strongly against this direction; the president wants to give unemployment boosts but doesn't want to help 'blue states'. He's not too keen on education either. I agree the situation is terrible and private colleges should be dying off rapidly.