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Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions? Suppose I want to buy a OS or a computer+OS (like Mac), so not talki

Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions? Suppose I want to buy a OS or a computer+OS (like Mac), so not talking about Linux and FreeBSD and whatnot. Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me by taking away control under the guise of security?

morganvachon 6y ago
"Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions?" That's impossible to answer accurately, as by definition being proprietary means even if they say they don't, we can't verify it by seeing the code for ourselves. "Suppose I want to buy a OS or a computer+OS (like Mac), so not talking about Linux and FreeBSD and whatnot. Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me by taking away control under the guise of security?" The short answer is "no", you cannot. However, you can indeed buy devices with no OS and load Linux (even Linux Certified devices from major OEMs), and even better you can buy a device from a Linux-first/Linux-only vendor like System 76, Think Penguin, Star Labs, etc. If Linux isn't your cup, OpenBSD is a strong contender for truly owning your equipment at the software level, as it is open source and well documented, with security as a major goal. Thinkpads and enterprise-class workstations fare best, but it also works great on older Macs.
- jancsika 6y ago
  > even Linux Certified devices from major OEMs I've got the XPS 13 from Dell that comes with Ubuntu pre-installed. AFAICT there's no shenanigans Dell is pulling wrt user data, phoning home, etc.
hinkley 6y ago
In some important ways, the computer you sit down in front of is at the mercy of the network that you attach it to. There are many things you can control about the computer if you control the machines it can talk to. A linux box running several pieces of software that the community works on to thwart this kind of misbehavior is something you can control, even if you can't control your Chromebook.
- sjy 6y ago
  Rather than “network you attach it to,” would it be more precise to say “repository it can automatically install software from”? What I think of as “the network” has very little control over my devices, and some of them even work without network access.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    A lot of software is set up to be run in a corporate environment, because that's where the money is. There are a bunch of spam blockers that utilize these features in order to keep, for instance, a browser, from misbehaving too badly. So from that standpoint, you need a piece of hardware you can trust implicitly, and tell your other applications and hardware that they're only allowed to talk to the Internet by talking to this machine.
LeoPanthera 6y ago
Well it depends what you mean/want by "proprietary". There are commercial versions of Linux you can buy with money that come with some amount of support. This seems like the best of both worlds to me - open source, but with official support behind it. I use SLED, for example, although this is not necessarily an endorsement, it is not the only choice. https://www.suse.com/shop/desktop/ https://www.suse.com/shop/desktop/
squiggleblaz 6y ago
Well, what unfree operating systems are there: * Windows * macOS * Android * iOS I think that is, at least for general purpose consumer level hardware, exhaustive. The article excludes macOS and by extension iOS. It also excludes Android, since it points out these are the same shenanigans pulled by Google. The only possibility, then, is Windows. Microsoft have root access to your system and can do an update whenever they want. There has been a back and forth about how much the end user can push back, but obviously Microsoft wins that battle. This is definitely a security benefit - but it also means you cannot check out the behavior of the system and have confidence about the behavior of the system tomorrow. So the answer is no. Anyway this is no surprise. Business have worked out they can rent you the things they used to sell you. Why wouldn't they?
bitwize 6y ago
Well, there's Raspberry Pi with RISC OS, I guess. AmigaOS is still being actively developed, and there's even a new computer -- called the Vampire V4 -- that will run 68k AmigaOS and software, much faster with the ability for modern addons like USB. AmigaOS 4.x is for PowerPC machines which can get pricey. But if you're looking to buy a modern PC with an "it just works" OS that asks no effort of you -- nope. See, the thing about putting in no effort is, somebody has to put it in. So effort that you don't take responsibility for yourself, you delegate to the vendor -- and you give them license for the same shenanigans Apple and Microsoft are getting up to. Restricting what apps you may run, tracking you through telemetry, and forcing updates on you is perfectly good business sense if you want to cater to the clueless but cannot handle the volume of support calls from them or the risks they present. In reality you're probably best served with some common Linux distro. There is probably more software and hardware support for Linux than there is for AmigaOS or RISC OS, which are today primarily of specialty or historical interest and only kept alive because, for example, Amiga people are too stubborn to admit that the Amiga boarded the White Ship bound for the Undying Lands a quarter century ago.
pmiller2 6y ago
I don't know about the latest versions, but I don't recall any shenanigans from ChromeOS in developer mode, as of about 3 years ago. I'm sure if my impressions from 1000+ days ago aren't still valid, someone will be along to correct me being Wrong On The Internet(tm). :-)
- jiggawatts 6y ago
  That's hilarious in a sad way: "Here at Google, we don't spy on ourselves! No siree Bob, that just would not do!"
  - quesera 6y ago
    ChromeOS Developer Mode is an option for all customers. It's not described in Google's marketing materials, and it compromises the trusted boot model of course -- but it's just a magic (but well-documented) keypress and a confirmation screen away, for all privately-owned devices. However, recent Chromebook models make Developer Mode less useful for most customers. Google is no longer shipping alternative boot ROM payloads, and there are firmware bugs which do not affect ChromeOS, but do affect other Linux distros.
Rury 6y ago
>Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions? >Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me Technically, all products are made to work a certain way. Take a car engine for example. Imagine if someone wanted to rip out their car radiator and attach something else in place and then complained to the dealer when the engine failed. This is why dealers sometimes void warranties if you didn't let them handle any repairs. This is also why OS makers secure some things away from you - to ensure their product works as they had intended. They don't want to be held responsible for any mess-ups their customers could make. As so, no one is trying to screw you. If you want control over an OS, then maybe don't buy a product from a vendor and instead make your own...
the8472 6y ago
> Suppose I want to buy a OS If you insist, red hat and canonical are selling. > or a computer+OS Similarly, there are Dell, System 76 and various other vendors providing preinstalled and tested bundles.
cable2600 6y ago
HaikuOS, ReactOS, AROS, MorphOS don't have phone home features in their OS and are as easy to use as a Mac. They also run faster because they have a smaller RAM footprint. I run Windows 95 in VirtualBox on my current modern system with Windows 10. Windows 95 runs super fast with Office 95, Visual BASIC 6.0, Delphi 2.0, etc. Sure they are old but they don't have the crap in them or the bloat.

morganvachon 6y ago

"Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions?" That's impossible to answer accurately, as by definition being proprietary means even if they say they don't, we can't verify it by seeing the code for ourselves. "Suppose I want to buy a OS or a computer+OS (like Mac), so not talking about Linux and FreeBSD and whatnot. Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me by taking away control under the guise of security?" The short answer is "no", you cannot. However, you can indeed buy devices with no OS and load Linux (even Linux Certified devices from major OEMs), and even better you can buy a device from a Linux-first/Linux-only vendor like System 76, Think Penguin, Star Labs, etc. If Linux isn't your cup, OpenBSD is a strong contender for truly owning your equipment at the software level, as it is open source and well documented, with security as a major goal. Thinkpads and enterprise-class workstations fare best, but it also works great on older Macs.

jancsika 6y ago
> even Linux Certified devices from major OEMs I've got the XPS 13 from Dell that comes with Ubuntu pre-installed. AFAICT there's no shenanigans Dell is pulling wrt user data, phoning home, etc.

hinkley 6y ago

In some important ways, the computer you sit down in front of is at the mercy of the network that you attach it to. There are many things you can control about the computer if you control the machines it can talk to. A linux box running several pieces of software that the community works on to thwart this kind of misbehavior is something you can control, even if you can't control your Chromebook.

sjy 6y ago
Rather than “network you attach it to,” would it be more precise to say “repository it can automatically install software from”? What I think of as “the network” has very little control over my devices, and some of them even work without network access.
- hinkley 6y ago
  A lot of software is set up to be run in a corporate environment, because that's where the money is. There are a bunch of spam blockers that utilize these features in order to keep, for instance, a browser, from misbehaving too badly. So from that standpoint, you need a piece of hardware you can trust implicitly, and tell your other applications and hardware that they're only allowed to talk to the Internet by talking to this machine.

LeoPanthera 6y ago

Well it depends what you mean/want by "proprietary". There are commercial versions of Linux you can buy with money that come with some amount of support. This seems like the best of both worlds to me - open source, but with official support behind it. I use SLED, for example, although this is not necessarily an endorsement, it is not the only choice. https://www.suse.com/shop/desktop/ https://www.suse.com/shop/desktop/

squiggleblaz 6y ago

Well, what unfree operating systems are there: * Windows * macOS * Android * iOS I think that is, at least for general purpose consumer level hardware, exhaustive. The article excludes macOS and by extension iOS. It also excludes Android, since it points out these are the same shenanigans pulled by Google. The only possibility, then, is Windows. Microsoft have root access to your system and can do an update whenever they want. There has been a back and forth about how much the end user can push back, but obviously Microsoft wins that battle. This is definitely a security benefit - but it also means you cannot check out the behavior of the system and have confidence about the behavior of the system tomorrow. So the answer is no. Anyway this is no surprise. Business have worked out they can rent you the things they used to sell you. Why wouldn't they?

bitwize 6y ago

Well, there's Raspberry Pi with RISC OS, I guess. AmigaOS is still being actively developed, and there's even a new computer -- called the Vampire V4 -- that will run 68k AmigaOS and software, much faster with the ability for modern addons like USB. AmigaOS 4.x is for PowerPC machines which can get pricey. But if you're looking to buy a modern PC with an "it just works" OS that asks no effort of you -- nope. See, the thing about putting in no effort is, somebody has to put it in. So effort that you don't take responsibility for yourself, you delegate to the vendor -- and you give them license for the same shenanigans Apple and Microsoft are getting up to. Restricting what apps you may run, tracking you through telemetry, and forcing updates on you is perfectly good business sense if you want to cater to the clueless but cannot handle the volume of support calls from them or the risks they present. In reality you're probably best served with some common Linux distro. There is probably more software and hardware support for Linux than there is for AmigaOS or RISC OS, which are today primarily of specialty or historical interest and only kept alive because, for example, Amiga people are too stubborn to admit that the Amiga boarded the White Ship bound for the Undying Lands a quarter century ago.

pmiller2 6y ago

I don't know about the latest versions, but I don't recall any shenanigans from ChromeOS in developer mode, as of about 3 years ago. I'm sure if my impressions from 1000+ days ago aren't still valid, someone will be along to correct me being Wrong On The Internet(tm). :-)

jiggawatts 6y ago
That's hilarious in a sad way: "Here at Google, we don't spy on ourselves! No siree Bob, that just would not do!"
- quesera 6y ago
  ChromeOS Developer Mode is an option for all customers. It's not described in Google's marketing materials, and it compromises the trusted boot model of course -- but it's just a magic (but well-documented) keypress and a confirmation screen away, for all privately-owned devices. However, recent Chromebook models make Developer Mode less useful for most customers. Google is no longer shipping alternative boot ROM payloads, and there are firmware bugs which do not affect ChromeOS, but do affect other Linux distros.

Rury 6y ago

>Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions? >Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me Technically, all products are made to work a certain way. Take a car engine for example. Imagine if someone wanted to rip out their car radiator and attach something else in place and then complained to the dealer when the engine failed. This is why dealers sometimes void warranties if you didn't let them handle any repairs. This is also why OS makers secure some things away from you - to ensure their product works as they had intended. They don't want to be held responsible for any mess-ups their customers could make. As so, no one is trying to screw you. If you want control over an OS, then maybe don't buy a product from a vendor and instead make your own...

the8472 6y ago

> Suppose I want to buy a OS If you insist, red hat and canonical are selling. > or a computer+OS Similarly, there are Dell, System 76 and various other vendors providing preinstalled and tested bundles.

cable2600 6y ago

HaikuOS, ReactOS, AROS, MorphOS don't have phone home features in their OS and are as easy to use as a Mac. They also run faster because they have a smaller RAM footprint. I run Windows 95 in VirtualBox on my current modern system with Windows 10. Windows 95 runs super fast with Office 95, Visual BASIC 6.0, Delphi 2.0, etc. Sure they are old but they don't have the crap in them or the bloat.