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> Does it really matter that Snowden received assistance from Russia considering the data he leaked was proven legitimate and courts even found the program he l

by seppin 6y ago

> Does it really matter that Snowden received assistance from Russia considering the data he leaked was proven legitimate and courts even found the program he leaked from as being illegal? One program he leaked was found to be illegal. 98% of what he leaked had nothing to do with domestic surveillance, wasn't illegal, and only was released to hurt US intel efforts and standing in the world. Which is why people view this as a Russian op from the start. I get that you don't care about any of that, but perhaps insist on accuracy when discussing it?

buran77 6y ago
Not that long ago people were running from Russia and doing their best to defect to the US, with any information they could bring with them. I'm sure that if you were alive back then you never once characterized that the same way you do it now with Snowden. If you wanted accuracy you'd have come here with way more than a flimsy story and a conclusion that's pure speculation. But that's what you brought. > people view this as a Russian op "People". Does any of them make a stronger case than you? Or does everyone simply reference "people" to support their conclusions? People also say the onlines are full of trolls and sock-puppet accounts creating narratives. You should be in the streets demanding that the people responsible for that "only one illegal program" be put in prison but here you are arguing that the person who gave them away should be there instead purely because he may or may not be associated with a US enemy.
- seppin 6y ago
  You make a lot of assumptions about what I think, and none of them are correct. Your writing style is also all over the place and hard to follow.
  - buran77 6y ago
    > Your writing style is also all over the place and hard to follow. That's a weird bit of deflection you've resorted to. [0] And unless you're walking back on every one of your comments and opinions in this thread I think I was spot on with my assessment. My friend, it's not my "hard to follow" writing style that you're stumbling on, it's that I made a more sensible argument than you did. You are plucking an argument out of thin air, floating on conspiracy and innuendo without any real evidence, or at least something that passes Occam's razor. Like that you can build anything, doesn't make it true. Look, I'm not even saying you are wrong, because I have no evidence either way. Just that the (far) more plausible explanation is that anyone running from a superpower is running to another superpower. It's the only thing that makes sense. He did what he had to do to survive. You're trying to build that into "he must have been a Russian puppet all along" because "people" have been saying it so you must be right. But then you complain that "people" also say he got stranded in Russia, so they must be wrong. So I ask you, is what "people" say only correct when you want it to be correct? You selectively go between "people support my views so I must be right" to "people contradict my views so they must be wrong". I'm sorry, that's no way to have a civilized and productive discussion. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24864900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24864900
    - seppin 6y ago
      It's not deflection if it directly affects our ability to have a discussion. > "he must have been a Russian puppet all along" No. Actually read what i'm saying. He chose a side. He knew that poking the eye of the US has consequences, and to avoid those consequences he needed to align himself with one of the few states left that doesn't bow to US wishes. The states that fit that criteria are themselves exclusively authoritarian. So in protesting the illegal surveillance of a liberal state, he made himself a pawn in the propaganda war of an illiberal state. That basic contraction was never his intention, but it became his reality. > Just that the (far) more plausible explanation is that anyone running from a superpower is running to another superpower. It's the only thing that makes sense. He did what he had to do to survive. Yes, we agree. His intentions can't ever be known, so arguing that is pointless. I'm simply pointing out the consequences of his actions and the basic contraction in his story vs the actual outcome.

by seppin 6y ago

buran77 6y ago

Not that long ago people were running from Russia and doing their best to defect to the US, with any information they could bring with them. I'm sure that if you were alive back then you never once characterized that the same way you do it now with Snowden. If you wanted accuracy you'd have come here with way more than a flimsy story and a conclusion that's pure speculation. But that's what you brought. > people view this as a Russian op "People". Does any of them make a stronger case than you? Or does everyone simply reference "people" to support their conclusions? People also say the onlines are full of trolls and sock-puppet accounts creating narratives. You should be in the streets demanding that the people responsible for that "only one illegal program" be put in prison but here you are arguing that the person who gave them away should be there instead purely because he may or may not be associated with a US enemy.

seppin 6y ago
You make a lot of assumptions about what I think, and none of them are correct. Your writing style is also all over the place and hard to follow.
- buran77 6y ago
  > Your writing style is also all over the place and hard to follow. That's a weird bit of deflection you've resorted to. [0] And unless you're walking back on every one of your comments and opinions in this thread I think I was spot on with my assessment. My friend, it's not my "hard to follow" writing style that you're stumbling on, it's that I made a more sensible argument than you did. You are plucking an argument out of thin air, floating on conspiracy and innuendo without any real evidence, or at least something that passes Occam's razor. Like that you can build anything, doesn't make it true. Look, I'm not even saying you are wrong, because I have no evidence either way. Just that the (far) more plausible explanation is that anyone running from a superpower is running to another superpower. It's the only thing that makes sense. He did what he had to do to survive. You're trying to build that into "he must have been a Russian puppet all along" because "people" have been saying it so you must be right. But then you complain that "people" also say he got stranded in Russia, so they must be wrong. So I ask you, is what "people" say only correct when you want it to be correct? You selectively go between "people support my views so I must be right" to "people contradict my views so they must be wrong". I'm sorry, that's no way to have a civilized and productive discussion. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24864900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24864900
  - seppin 6y ago
    It's not deflection if it directly affects our ability to have a discussion. > "he must have been a Russian puppet all along" No. Actually read what i'm saying. He chose a side. He knew that poking the eye of the US has consequences, and to avoid those consequences he needed to align himself with one of the few states left that doesn't bow to US wishes. The states that fit that criteria are themselves exclusively authoritarian. So in protesting the illegal surveillance of a liberal state, he made himself a pawn in the propaganda war of an illiberal state. That basic contraction was never his intention, but it became his reality. > Just that the (far) more plausible explanation is that anyone running from a superpower is running to another superpower. It's the only thing that makes sense. He did what he had to do to survive. Yes, we agree. His intentions can't ever be known, so arguing that is pointless. I'm simply pointing out the consequences of his actions and the basic contraction in his story vs the actual outcome.