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"Emissions-free" is a lie anyway. Tire rubber dust/oil/windshield wiper fluid etc. There is no such thing as an emission-free car. Also gray energy emission (em

by noxer 6y ago

"Emissions-free" is a lie anyway. Tire rubber dust/oil/windshield wiper fluid etc. There is no such thing as an emission-free car. Also gray energy emission (embodied energy) is completely ignore as allays. If we compare average emission per mileage per car over the whole lifetime EVs are just as bad as any other car. The only way to change that is if cars stop being parked 99% of their lifetime. Environmentally the worst thing for a car to do is not being in use. It means more cars are build than work is there for them. Thats how we actually waste resources and pollute completely unnecessary.

emptysongglass 6y ago
> If we compare average emission per mileage per car over the whole lifetime EVs are just as bad as any other car. That sounds totally outside the realm of reason. Please do cite some third-party sources.
- minerjoe 6y ago
  Sounds reasonable to me. Embodied energy. One example, it takes a heck of a lot of energy to mine and process all that copper that goes into the motor windings. Another, it takes a heck of a lot of energy to mine and process all that lithium that goes in the batteries. Plus, where is the electricity comming from to charge them? Here in Montana, that generally means coal, burned hundreds of miles away and transported at great loss.
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    But when the coal plants get shut down and replaced with less polluting options, all electric cars in the state will instantly become less polluting. You do know that the car industry only uses a fraction of a fraction of all electric motors created, right? And the stuff dug out of the ground doesn't mystically disappear, it can still be recycled. Coal and oil will actually just go poof when it's used. It can never be used again.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  They can't because it's not true. The only way to find a third-party source to back that up is either use the one Swedish(?) study, which has been refuted by its original authors or some really ancient source with old data. Depending on the way a country produces most of its electricity, EVs will outperform ICEs in emissions in just a few years. And that's mostly ignoring the emissions from drilling oil, refining it to petrol and moving said petrol to stations.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- noxer 6y ago
  This wasn't meant to be a scientific publishing so no I'm not gonna back this up with any source. Do your own research or simply skip the part of my comment if you think its wrong. And to all the people commenting below. It doesn't even matter if EVs are better. Even if they have half the emission to a normal car. Reusing a existing car is almost certainly still better. Also no one really know what the lifespan of any modern car is. If you assume cars follow the trend of anything else then EVs will probably be obsolete after 5 years by the time we have 50% EVs on the road. Building a car EV or not that last 10, 15 even 20 years outperforms in emission. Also my main point was that humanity should reduce cars that aren't moving that would reduce pointless emission.
Swenrekcah 6y ago
>"Emissions-free" is a lie anyway. Tire rubber dust/oil/windshield wiper fluid etc. There is no such thing as an emission-free car. True, all cars pollute, but EVs pollute their environment less. >Also gray energy emission (embodied energy) is completely ignore as allays. If we compare average emission per mileage per car over the whole lifetime EVs are just as bad as any other car. For one, I'm pretty sure that CO2 emissions per lifetime of EV is significantly less than ICE although it is absolutely not zero, that's true. But point two: Containing emissions from a factory is much simpler than containing emssions from a million cars driving around. >The only way to change that is if cars stop being parked 99% of their lifetime. Environmentally the worst thing for a car to do is not being in use. It means more cars are build than work is there for them. True, personal vehicles are rather wasteful but it is definitely worse for the environment to drive an ICE than to not drive it. >Thats how we actually waste resources and pollute completely unnecessary. I agree, cars should be taxed a lot at purchase and their usage billed (with road usage taxes for instance).
ogre_codes 6y ago
> If we compare average emission per mileage per car over the whole lifetime EVs are just as bad as any other car. You had me up to this point. EVs are certainly responsible for some emissions. But ICE cars share all the "Emissions" you mention (Tire rubber dust/oil/windshield wiper fluid etc.), plus the massive emissions of just burning gasoline increasingly inefficiently over the lifespan of the vehicle. Plus wasteful oil leaks and just oil burning over the life of the vehicle; the environmental cost of shipping oil and gasoline all over the planet; the environmental damage from massive oil spills and small gasoline spills from everyday fill-ups; transmission fluids, the list goes on and on. EVs aren't perfect in terms of the environment, they aren't even great, but they are a metric ton better than ICE vehicles.
HeadsUpHigh 6y ago
The total CO2 cost of an EV vs an ICE has been calculated by multiple groups and the results are only a search away. Even the studies funded by oil companies can't fudge the numbers enough to really make them worse.

by noxer 6y ago

emptysongglass 6y ago

> If we compare average emission per mileage per car over the whole lifetime EVs are just as bad as any other car. That sounds totally outside the realm of reason. Please do cite some third-party sources.

minerjoe 6y ago
Sounds reasonable to me. Embodied energy. One example, it takes a heck of a lot of energy to mine and process all that copper that goes into the motor windings. Another, it takes a heck of a lot of energy to mine and process all that lithium that goes in the batteries. Plus, where is the electricity comming from to charge them? Here in Montana, that generally means coal, burned hundreds of miles away and transported at great loss.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  But when the coal plants get shut down and replaced with less polluting options, all electric cars in the state will instantly become less polluting. You do know that the car industry only uses a fraction of a fraction of all electric motors created, right? And the stuff dug out of the ground doesn't mystically disappear, it can still be recycled. Coal and oil will actually just go poof when it's used. It can never be used again.
theshrike79 6y ago
They can't because it's not true. The only way to find a third-party source to back that up is either use the one Swedish(?) study, which has been refuted by its original authors or some really ancient source with old data. Depending on the way a country produces most of its electricity, EVs will outperform ICEs in emissions in just a few years. And that's mostly ignoring the emissions from drilling oil, refining it to petrol and moving said petrol to stations.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
noxer 6y ago
This wasn't meant to be a scientific publishing so no I'm not gonna back this up with any source. Do your own research or simply skip the part of my comment if you think its wrong. And to all the people commenting below. It doesn't even matter if EVs are better. Even if they have half the emission to a normal car. Reusing a existing car is almost certainly still better. Also no one really know what the lifespan of any modern car is. If you assume cars follow the trend of anything else then EVs will probably be obsolete after 5 years by the time we have 50% EVs on the road. Building a car EV or not that last 10, 15 even 20 years outperforms in emission. Also my main point was that humanity should reduce cars that aren't moving that would reduce pointless emission.

Swenrekcah 6y ago

>"Emissions-free" is a lie anyway. Tire rubber dust/oil/windshield wiper fluid etc. There is no such thing as an emission-free car. True, all cars pollute, but EVs pollute their environment less. >Also gray energy emission (embodied energy) is completely ignore as allays. If we compare average emission per mileage per car over the whole lifetime EVs are just as bad as any other car. For one, I'm pretty sure that CO2 emissions per lifetime of EV is significantly less than ICE although it is absolutely not zero, that's true. But point two: Containing emissions from a factory is much simpler than containing emssions from a million cars driving around. >The only way to change that is if cars stop being parked 99% of their lifetime. Environmentally the worst thing for a car to do is not being in use. It means more cars are build than work is there for them. True, personal vehicles are rather wasteful but it is definitely worse for the environment to drive an ICE than to not drive it. >Thats how we actually waste resources and pollute completely unnecessary. I agree, cars should be taxed a lot at purchase and their usage billed (with road usage taxes for instance).

ogre_codes 6y ago

> If we compare average emission per mileage per car over the whole lifetime EVs are just as bad as any other car. You had me up to this point. EVs are certainly responsible for some emissions. But ICE cars share all the "Emissions" you mention (Tire rubber dust/oil/windshield wiper fluid etc.), plus the massive emissions of just burning gasoline increasingly inefficiently over the lifespan of the vehicle. Plus wasteful oil leaks and just oil burning over the life of the vehicle; the environmental cost of shipping oil and gasoline all over the planet; the environmental damage from massive oil spills and small gasoline spills from everyday fill-ups; transmission fluids, the list goes on and on. EVs aren't perfect in terms of the environment, they aren't even great, but they are a metric ton better than ICE vehicles.

HeadsUpHigh 6y ago

The total CO2 cost of an EV vs an ICE has been calculated by multiple groups and the results are only a search away. Even the studies funded by oil companies can't fudge the numbers enough to really make them worse.