9 ms·

A lot of people in here are saying - oh I had to do this is Germany or Denmark or USA as well. Which is fair, but what irks me is that in India which has pretty

by rockyj 6y ago

A lot of people in here are saying - oh I had to do this is Germany or Denmark or USA as well. Which is fair, but what irks me is that in India which has pretty high taxation in all departments (see Petrol/Gasoline) the tax you pay gives you ZERO benefit. No healthcare, education or unemployment benefits etc. Also on top of this, due to the corrupt system, if you need anything from any govt. agency you will need to pay a bribe anyways (e.g. registering an apartment, even getting a passport). TBH, I am a big fan of taxes, I am happy to pay even 50-60% in taxes if that means my fellow human is not left hungry or without healthcare or without a roof on their head. In India this is not the case, high taxes, with no benefits to anyone (except the government and their friends).

instagraham 6y ago
> No healthcare, education or unemployment benefits India has a massive welfare state. Just because it doesn't benefit iPhone 12 buyers doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is the welfare state 100% effective? No. But it's disingenuous to say welfare doesn't play a role for millions of families.
- hangonhn 6y ago
  I wonder if the GP is complaining about the delivery of said welfare because at least on paper that welfare should be happening. Yet GP believes there are nearly zero benefits. Therefore, I wonder if there is a "disconnect" between what is suppose to happen and what actually happens on the ground.
  - wobbly_bush 6y ago
    This is exactly it. On paper the government schemes are all well thought out and cover a large percentage of problems. The issue isn't in coming up with schemes, it's the implementation which is extremely lacking. So most of the money that is supposed to go into these schemes, end up being illegally pocketed by those in power. This is in addition to "paying a bribe" which most anecdotes talk about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India
  - vshade 6y ago
    India is country with lots of poor people, so sometimes that money is not enough to have decent services for upper middle class citizens not feel like paying a lot for poor services. It is one of the problems of my home country, corruption is problem as well, but sometimes you're just paying lots of money because lots of people are paying nothing or very little.
    - wobbly_bush 6y ago
      It's a myth that the lack of government services are solely due to lack of funding or budget deficit. One of the original complaints in the thread was about government-provided healthcare and education. Government schools & hospitals exist, but they aren't exactly known for their quality apart from a few niche ones like IITs, IIMs, AIIMs. So is the issue that lack of funding is preventing these public services from being effective? We could look at any independent report to find the problems. A search on this issue brings up https://yourstory.com/2017/09/india-public-education-system?utm_pageloadtype=scroll https://yourstory.com/2017/09/india-public-education-system?..., it's not thorough report but it's a start. This brings to light another problem - unlike the developed countries, in India the average citizen doesn't even know the specifics of things that can be improved because there are hardly any independent organizations which raise awareness about specific policies, or which publish easy to digest reports for the general public to become better informed.
      - vshade 6y ago
        This doesn't contradicts that lack of funding is a problem, at least in the country from where I come public school teachers are usually underpaid and it can be hard to attract and keep the good ones without it.
        throwawy42434 6y ago
        It isn't - public schooling was in a far better shape/quality 40-50 years back, when the Indian Boomers were growing up. This was a time of war and food-shortages; funding clearly is not the problem.
      - 6y ago
- Jayakumark 6y ago
  Just curious , What welfare are you referring to ?
robotresearcher 6y ago
> Under various articles of the Indian Constitution, free and compulsory education is provided as a fundamental right to children aged 6 to 14. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_India Is this not working out in practice, in your view?
- rockyj 6y ago
  As someone has mentioned in the comments in this thread, it is easy to pass laws & schemes sitting in a comfortable office. The implementation which takes resources, efficient distribution, competence and leg work is another story. Anyways, I do not want to be too critical of anyone. My knowledge is limited to a few families I know and the few cities I have lived in. India is huge and hard to describe in a few sentences. Finally, to clarify, I am not the guy who would buy an iPhone or go to Dubai. I am a lowly programmer, happy with my $250 Android which I use for 2-3 years.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- throwawy42434 6y ago
  Public schools have been abandoned by everyone but the very poorest - the facilities are terrible even by 3rd world standards, and worse, the public schools push the eduction in the native languages, which is (very sadly) next to worthless economically in India. The above disempowerment of India's natives, their culture and languages, is the direct result of the Indian state continuing colonial policies of very unfairly advantaging the Anglicized elites, educationally, socially, politically and thus economically. Now that the state has completely failed in its duties, yet again, it has passed a new RTE act, in which it further burdens private schools, targeting esp. those run by Hindus. The Indian state in all its 'secular' glory, decided also to favor the Christian missionary schools, the very ones that were instrumental in destroying the country (and China), by sparing them of the same burdens. https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/the-evidence-is-compelling-and-conclusive-that-the-rte-has-failed-jp https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/the-evidence-is-compelling-... https://swarajyamag.com/politics/rte-benefits-minority-schools-exclusively-and-the-numbers-confirm-it https://swarajyamag.com/politics/rte-benefits-minority-schoo... The Indian political estd. and the state is disgusting. Quite frankly, the British for all their faults, atleast knew how to keep a public-schooling and university system running. The 'Brown Babus' are little more than self-conceited idiots wearing fancy suits.
Joeri 6y ago
Are taxes really that high compared to other countries? India has a tax to gdp ratio of 10%, compared to 25% in the US and 40% in the EU. Maybe you are underestimating just how much taxes are required to fund an effective welfare state?
- rockyj 6y ago
  I'll leave it for you to judge - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/tax/latest-income-tax-slabs/articleshow/62751981.cms?from=mdr https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/tax/latest-incom... 1 Lakh = 100,000 1 USD = 73 Rs. A mid-level manager / programmer would pay around 20-25% in taxes. Plus, Current GST (VAT) rate in India is 18% for goods and services like most countries. There are reduced rates 0%, 5% and 12% for some goods and services, and 28% luxury rate for some items. And finally, other tariffs on things like iPhone, computer parts, cars etc.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    That seems fairly low given the fact that a mid-level programmer is pretty fortunate relatively
- throwawy42434 6y ago
  I don't see where the welfare state is. - Public schooling, unusable. - Public health, unusable. - Public infrastructure, unusable. I have no clue where my taxes are going, but it sure as hell isn't being spent for "welfare".
- vinni2 6y ago
  And number of people evading tax is also significant. A lot of small and medium businesses don’t pay or pay very little income tax.
sfifs 6y ago
I think what you're missing is that a vanishingly small proportion of the population actually earns enough to pay income tax and there's a breathtakingly huge number of relatively poor folks. A lot of services are massively subsidised for these folks but there's a billion of them. The whole Indian railways network is massively subsidized but it's doubtful anyone on HN would travel by anything other than air conditioned if indeed they travel by train (eg. I've never travelled by train after i began working). In many states, basic groceries are effectively free. The less well off folks buy from these, the "middle class" shops from private traders. However there's a massive number of the less well off. Not saying there's no corruption, but the scale of the problem is massive.
nikhizzle 6y ago
I think perhaps you are conflating no services for the upper 20% of society with no services. But the gulf is very wide in India and the population is massive. 354 million people in poverty! India's food assistance programs, free education, and healthcare are amongst the most used on the planet. Examples from Wikipedia: - The Indian public health sector encompasses 18% of total outpatient care and 44% of total inpatient care - Free lunch programs for underprivileged children: "Serving 120,000,000 children in over 1,265,000 schools and Education Guarantee Scheme centres, it is the largest of its kind in the world" - Universal healthcare targeted at underprivileged: "PMJAY and the e-card provide a coverage of Rs. 5 lakh ($ 6860) per family, per year, thus helping the economically disadvantaged obtain easy access to healthcare services." - 550,000 ration shops providing subsidized food Please do not generalize your own experience to that of 1 billion people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_distribution_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_distribution_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Programs_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Programs_in_India https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/india https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy...
- rockyj 6y ago
  Without any sarcasm, thank you, I did not know all this :) I also hope and pray that these programs are working well as intended.
throwawy42434 6y ago
Well, taxation is little more than rent-seeking by the third-rate inheritors of the British kleptocracy to let you be - from the petty-bribery to all the way up the food chain. Why are you (or anyone) surprised by this ? The only option, very sadly, is one of emigrating out. There is little hope for change in this century.
jsu32 6y ago
"even 50%-60% in taxes" in the US paying 60% in taxes is equivalent to 'not contributing your fair share" which is why Biden wants to take it even higher. I'm surprised how US has some of the highest income taxes (especially in places like CA and NYC) but people still think it's a low tax place.
vinni2 6y ago
Not to mention number of people with sufficient income and actually pay taxes is also minuscule. Ok couldn’t find a proper citation for this.

by rockyj 6y ago

instagraham 6y ago

> No healthcare, education or unemployment benefits India has a massive welfare state. Just because it doesn't benefit iPhone 12 buyers doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is the welfare state 100% effective? No. But it's disingenuous to say welfare doesn't play a role for millions of families.

hangonhn 6y ago
I wonder if the GP is complaining about the delivery of said welfare because at least on paper that welfare should be happening. Yet GP believes there are nearly zero benefits. Therefore, I wonder if there is a "disconnect" between what is suppose to happen and what actually happens on the ground.
- wobbly_bush 6y ago
  This is exactly it. On paper the government schemes are all well thought out and cover a large percentage of problems. The issue isn't in coming up with schemes, it's the implementation which is extremely lacking. So most of the money that is supposed to go into these schemes, end up being illegally pocketed by those in power. This is in addition to "paying a bribe" which most anecdotes talk about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India
- vshade 6y ago
  India is country with lots of poor people, so sometimes that money is not enough to have decent services for upper middle class citizens not feel like paying a lot for poor services. It is one of the problems of my home country, corruption is problem as well, but sometimes you're just paying lots of money because lots of people are paying nothing or very little.
  - wobbly_bush 6y ago
    It's a myth that the lack of government services are solely due to lack of funding or budget deficit. One of the original complaints in the thread was about government-provided healthcare and education. Government schools & hospitals exist, but they aren't exactly known for their quality apart from a few niche ones like IITs, IIMs, AIIMs. So is the issue that lack of funding is preventing these public services from being effective? We could look at any independent report to find the problems. A search on this issue brings up https://yourstory.com/2017/09/india-public-education-system?utm_pageloadtype=scroll https://yourstory.com/2017/09/india-public-education-system?..., it's not thorough report but it's a start. This brings to light another problem - unlike the developed countries, in India the average citizen doesn't even know the specifics of things that can be improved because there are hardly any independent organizations which raise awareness about specific policies, or which publish easy to digest reports for the general public to become better informed.
    - vshade 6y ago
      This doesn't contradicts that lack of funding is a problem, at least in the country from where I come public school teachers are usually underpaid and it can be hard to attract and keep the good ones without it.
      - throwawy42434 6y ago
        It isn't - public schooling was in a far better shape/quality 40-50 years back, when the Indian Boomers were growing up. This was a time of war and food-shortages; funding clearly is not the problem.
    - 6y ago
Jayakumark 6y ago
Just curious , What welfare are you referring to ?

robotresearcher 6y ago

> Under various articles of the Indian Constitution, free and compulsory education is provided as a fundamental right to children aged 6 to 14. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_India Is this not working out in practice, in your view?

rockyj 6y ago
As someone has mentioned in the comments in this thread, it is easy to pass laws & schemes sitting in a comfortable office. The implementation which takes resources, efficient distribution, competence and leg work is another story. Anyways, I do not want to be too critical of anyone. My knowledge is limited to a few families I know and the few cities I have lived in. India is huge and hard to describe in a few sentences. Finally, to clarify, I am not the guy who would buy an iPhone or go to Dubai. I am a lowly programmer, happy with my $250 Android which I use for 2-3 years.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
throwawy42434 6y ago
Public schools have been abandoned by everyone but the very poorest - the facilities are terrible even by 3rd world standards, and worse, the public schools push the eduction in the native languages, which is (very sadly) next to worthless economically in India. The above disempowerment of India's natives, their culture and languages, is the direct result of the Indian state continuing colonial policies of very unfairly advantaging the Anglicized elites, educationally, socially, politically and thus economically. Now that the state has completely failed in its duties, yet again, it has passed a new RTE act, in which it further burdens private schools, targeting esp. those run by Hindus. The Indian state in all its 'secular' glory, decided also to favor the Christian missionary schools, the very ones that were instrumental in destroying the country (and China), by sparing them of the same burdens. https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/the-evidence-is-compelling-and-conclusive-that-the-rte-has-failed-jp https://swarajyamag.com/magazine/the-evidence-is-compelling-... https://swarajyamag.com/politics/rte-benefits-minority-schools-exclusively-and-the-numbers-confirm-it https://swarajyamag.com/politics/rte-benefits-minority-schoo... The Indian political estd. and the state is disgusting. Quite frankly, the British for all their faults, atleast knew how to keep a public-schooling and university system running. The 'Brown Babus' are little more than self-conceited idiots wearing fancy suits.

Joeri 6y ago

Are taxes really that high compared to other countries? India has a tax to gdp ratio of 10%, compared to 25% in the US and 40% in the EU. Maybe you are underestimating just how much taxes are required to fund an effective welfare state?

rockyj 6y ago
I'll leave it for you to judge - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/tax/latest-income-tax-slabs/articleshow/62751981.cms?from=mdr https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/tax/latest-incom... 1 Lakh = 100,000 1 USD = 73 Rs. A mid-level manager / programmer would pay around 20-25% in taxes. Plus, Current GST (VAT) rate in India is 18% for goods and services like most countries. There are reduced rates 0%, 5% and 12% for some goods and services, and 28% luxury rate for some items. And finally, other tariffs on things like iPhone, computer parts, cars etc.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  That seems fairly low given the fact that a mid-level programmer is pretty fortunate relatively
throwawy42434 6y ago
I don't see where the welfare state is. - Public schooling, unusable. - Public health, unusable. - Public infrastructure, unusable. I have no clue where my taxes are going, but it sure as hell isn't being spent for "welfare".
vinni2 6y ago
And number of people evading tax is also significant. A lot of small and medium businesses don’t pay or pay very little income tax.

sfifs 6y ago

I think what you're missing is that a vanishingly small proportion of the population actually earns enough to pay income tax and there's a breathtakingly huge number of relatively poor folks. A lot of services are massively subsidised for these folks but there's a billion of them. The whole Indian railways network is massively subsidized but it's doubtful anyone on HN would travel by anything other than air conditioned if indeed they travel by train (eg. I've never travelled by train after i began working). In many states, basic groceries are effectively free. The less well off folks buy from these, the "middle class" shops from private traders. However there's a massive number of the less well off. Not saying there's no corruption, but the scale of the problem is massive.

nikhizzle 6y ago

I think perhaps you are conflating no services for the upper 20% of society with no services. But the gulf is very wide in India and the population is massive. 354 million people in poverty! India's food assistance programs, free education, and healthcare are amongst the most used on the planet. Examples from Wikipedia: - The Indian public health sector encompasses 18% of total outpatient care and 44% of total inpatient care - Free lunch programs for underprivileged children: "Serving 120,000,000 children in over 1,265,000 schools and Education Guarantee Scheme centres, it is the largest of its kind in the world" - Universal healthcare targeted at underprivileged: "PMJAY and the e-card provide a coverage of Rs. 5 lakh ($ 6860) per family, per year, thus helping the economically disadvantaged obtain easy access to healthcare services." - 550,000 ration shops providing subsidized food Please do not generalize your own experience to that of 1 billion people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_distribution_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_distribution_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Programs_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Programs_in_India https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/india https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy...

rockyj 6y ago
Without any sarcasm, thank you, I did not know all this :) I also hope and pray that these programs are working well as intended.

throwawy42434 6y ago

Well, taxation is little more than rent-seeking by the third-rate inheritors of the British kleptocracy to let you be - from the petty-bribery to all the way up the food chain. Why are you (or anyone) surprised by this ? The only option, very sadly, is one of emigrating out. There is little hope for change in this century.

jsu32 6y ago

"even 50%-60% in taxes" in the US paying 60% in taxes is equivalent to 'not contributing your fair share" which is why Biden wants to take it even higher. I'm surprised how US has some of the highest income taxes (especially in places like CA and NYC) but people still think it's a low tax place.

vinni2 6y ago

Not to mention number of people with sufficient income and actually pay taxes is also minuscule. Ok couldn’t find a proper citation for this.