5 ms·

100% agree with the article - cars, even in this petite form factor, are not the future of urban transportation. Cycling, electric cycling, scooting, walking an

100% agree with the article - cars, even in this petite form factor, are not the future of urban transportation. Cycling, electric cycling, scooting, walking and better mass transit will make our cities quieter, safer and more livable. Sure, there is a niche for these cute cars for those unable to use these other forms.

zdragnar 6y ago
...in warm climates. Nobody wants to walk to or from a bus stop in -30 degree winds if they can get an alternative, and most won't scooter or bike in freezing conditions either.
- baq 6y ago
  exactly. ideally there would be no need to get to the bus stop - if most of your needs could be satisfied within walking distance.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Even if you live in the urban core of a dense city like Boston, NY, or Paris, you can't realistically walk most places you would want to go.
    - slykar 6y ago
      Where do you want to go? Living in a city center right now. It's hard for me to find a thing I DON'T have in a radius of 4km, which is a reasonable walking distance.
    - ed312 6y ago
      Uh, citation please? Have lived in and around Boston, you certainly can get everything you need with either walking or a couple T stops.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        >or a couple of T stops The parent was specifically talking about walking rather than taking public transit. Boston has a particularly dense core and yes, so long as you confine yourself to the original Boston core (North End, Beacon Hill, Financial District, maybe add the Back Bay), you don't really need to use public transit. But I'm probably not going to walk from there to Harvard Square in Cambridge, Symphony Hall, or even the Seaport on a regular basis although I could.
    - nicoburns 6y ago
      I'm not familiar with Boston. But I think NY and Paris are actually too big for everything to be walkable. In smaller cities that's definitely possible. I used to live in Bristol, UK (pop. ~500k) and if you lived centrally then you get pretty much anywhere within 30 minutes of walking.
    - rospaya 6y ago
      Paris is actively working on becoming a "15 minute city" https://www.smartcitylab.com/blog/governance-finance/paris-15-minute-city/ https://www.smartcitylab.com/blog/governance-finance/paris-1...
    - TillE 6y ago
      I live in Berlin (tarif zone B, so not even the true center), I haven't been inside a vehicle of any kind since February. Even in normal times, 99% of my transit usage is for leisure rather than necessity.
- lm28469 6y ago
  > walk to or from a bus stop in -30 degree winds What's the percentage of the world population living in dense urban areas where temperatures drop to -30 ?
  - wenc 6y ago
    Not sure what the percentage is, but it's not a small number. This is the map of areas classified as Köppen Humid Continental. It covers almost all of the populated areas of Canada and the northern United States, as well as parts of Europe and Korea, northern Japan and northern China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_continental_climate#/media/File:K%C3%B6ppen_World_Map_Dsa,_Dwa,_Dfa,_Dsb,_Dwb_and_Dfb_(Humid_continental).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_continental_climate#/med... Most northern US geographies experience at least a few days of -30°C (-22°F) weather every winter (even coastal places like NYC -- I remember it was freezing in lower Manhattan ca Feb 2016). However it's not as bad as it looks, as these temperatures are wind-chill temperatures and usually occur in the wee hours of the morning.
    - bluenose69 6y ago
      Agreed; -30C is not really that bad if you dress for it. I find it a lot more pleasant than +30C with humidity.
- screye 6y ago
  I stay in Boston, and winter really isn't as big a problem for public transport as people make it out to be. I can't think of many cities outside Canada/Russia that have worse weather (cold, high precipitation and windy). If anything, owning a car in the winter is a massive pain as driving is riskier, involves daily drive-thru shovelling and regular de-icing that gets irritating rather fast. Biking does get quite difficult for longer trips, but people still use bikes (owned or rental city bikes) for short distance trips to the grocery stores within 10 minute distances. I recognize that this only works in dense enough cities. But, if the city is dense enough to have good public transportation in the summer, then it is dense enough for public transportation to be sufficient over the winter.
- lagadu 6y ago
  You should come to Copenhagen for an extended period sometime.
baq 6y ago
cars will be the future of urban transportation for as long as urban areas will be designed with cars in mind. there needs to be a top-down policy change to break the cycle - until then, making cars smaller, lighter and less polluting is our best bet.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Noos 6y ago
These things are nowhere near as good as you think, and HN fetishizes them a bit too much. Trying to cycle or scoot on slush filled roads or in 90 degree plus temperatures is a tedious chore; being unable to simply go out and bring home a 75 pound piece of unassembled furniture, or buying frozen foods in bulk sucks too. Being 50 or older and having even the slightest health problem will teach you why cars are good. My own mother is 70 and is starting to have knee issues; cars are the only way for her to even survive. A lot of ebikes and scooters aren't even able to support a weight limit over 200-250 pounds, limiting cargo usage. Many struggle to go up hills. And we aren't even getting into things like how bicycles and scooters are much easier to steal or steal from, or how unsafe walking can be at certain times of the day especially if you are a woman. Or having to ride a bus next to someone who smells like shit and is possibly deranged. Cars are freedom and power. There is way too much idolizing a sort of serf mindset here; have nothing, do what government tells you, be part of a crowd dependent on others to sustain you.
- kergonath 6y ago
  > Trying to cycle or scoot on slush filled roads or in 90 degree plus temperatures is a tedious chore; being unable to simply go out and bring home a 75 pound piece of unassembled furniture, or buying frozen foods in bulk sucks too. As far as I am concerned, I ride buses and trains and almost never cycle, and I don’t have a car. The cases you mention here would be solved much more rationally and efficiently by generalising home deliveries (with electric trucks). You don’t need to dimension your car for the furniture you need to carry around once every 5 years. You can just rent a van for a day then. > Cars are freedom and power. ...which come at a cost that too few people realise, and which our children will have to pay. > There is way too much idolizing a sort of serf mindset here; have nothing, do what government tells you, be part of a crowd dependent on others to sustain you. Now I have some ideological issues with this. Most governments I know encourage people to buy cars because it stimulates the economy and keeps some factories running, and some mates among money. Governments in general follow, not lead, these efforts. You already are part of a crowd and could not survive on your own. You are dependent on thousands of people you will never meet for the most insignificant of your daily activities. To paraphrase, there is way to much idolising a sort of tough survivor mindset around. The tough guy living in a forest with his gun (which he built? From ore he mined?) is a mirage. If society collapses, tough guys will die just as well as others. There has to be a middle ground, where one can be wise enough to enjoy the freedom that living in society provides without being entirely controlled by totalitarians.

zdragnar 6y ago

...in warm climates. Nobody wants to walk to or from a bus stop in -30 degree winds if they can get an alternative, and most won't scooter or bike in freezing conditions either.

baq 6y ago
exactly. ideally there would be no need to get to the bus stop - if most of your needs could be satisfied within walking distance.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Even if you live in the urban core of a dense city like Boston, NY, or Paris, you can't realistically walk most places you would want to go.
  - slykar 6y ago
    Where do you want to go? Living in a city center right now. It's hard for me to find a thing I DON'T have in a radius of 4km, which is a reasonable walking distance.
  - ed312 6y ago
    Uh, citation please? Have lived in and around Boston, you certainly can get everything you need with either walking or a couple T stops.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      >or a couple of T stops The parent was specifically talking about walking rather than taking public transit. Boston has a particularly dense core and yes, so long as you confine yourself to the original Boston core (North End, Beacon Hill, Financial District, maybe add the Back Bay), you don't really need to use public transit. But I'm probably not going to walk from there to Harvard Square in Cambridge, Symphony Hall, or even the Seaport on a regular basis although I could.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    I'm not familiar with Boston. But I think NY and Paris are actually too big for everything to be walkable. In smaller cities that's definitely possible. I used to live in Bristol, UK (pop. ~500k) and if you lived centrally then you get pretty much anywhere within 30 minutes of walking.
  - rospaya 6y ago
    Paris is actively working on becoming a "15 minute city" https://www.smartcitylab.com/blog/governance-finance/paris-15-minute-city/ https://www.smartcitylab.com/blog/governance-finance/paris-1...
  - TillE 6y ago
    I live in Berlin (tarif zone B, so not even the true center), I haven't been inside a vehicle of any kind since February. Even in normal times, 99% of my transit usage is for leisure rather than necessity.
lm28469 6y ago
> walk to or from a bus stop in -30 degree winds What's the percentage of the world population living in dense urban areas where temperatures drop to -30 ?
- wenc 6y ago
  Not sure what the percentage is, but it's not a small number. This is the map of areas classified as Köppen Humid Continental. It covers almost all of the populated areas of Canada and the northern United States, as well as parts of Europe and Korea, northern Japan and northern China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_continental_climate#/media/File:K%C3%B6ppen_World_Map_Dsa,_Dwa,_Dfa,_Dsb,_Dwb_and_Dfb_(Humid_continental).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_continental_climate#/med... Most northern US geographies experience at least a few days of -30°C (-22°F) weather every winter (even coastal places like NYC -- I remember it was freezing in lower Manhattan ca Feb 2016). However it's not as bad as it looks, as these temperatures are wind-chill temperatures and usually occur in the wee hours of the morning.
  - bluenose69 6y ago
    Agreed; -30C is not really that bad if you dress for it. I find it a lot more pleasant than +30C with humidity.
screye 6y ago
I stay in Boston, and winter really isn't as big a problem for public transport as people make it out to be. I can't think of many cities outside Canada/Russia that have worse weather (cold, high precipitation and windy). If anything, owning a car in the winter is a massive pain as driving is riskier, involves daily drive-thru shovelling and regular de-icing that gets irritating rather fast. Biking does get quite difficult for longer trips, but people still use bikes (owned or rental city bikes) for short distance trips to the grocery stores within 10 minute distances. I recognize that this only works in dense enough cities. But, if the city is dense enough to have good public transportation in the summer, then it is dense enough for public transportation to be sufficient over the winter.
lagadu 6y ago
You should come to Copenhagen for an extended period sometime.

baq 6y ago

cars will be the future of urban transportation for as long as urban areas will be designed with cars in mind. there needs to be a top-down policy change to break the cycle - until then, making cars smaller, lighter and less polluting is our best bet.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Noos 6y ago

These things are nowhere near as good as you think, and HN fetishizes them a bit too much. Trying to cycle or scoot on slush filled roads or in 90 degree plus temperatures is a tedious chore; being unable to simply go out and bring home a 75 pound piece of unassembled furniture, or buying frozen foods in bulk sucks too. Being 50 or older and having even the slightest health problem will teach you why cars are good. My own mother is 70 and is starting to have knee issues; cars are the only way for her to even survive. A lot of ebikes and scooters aren't even able to support a weight limit over 200-250 pounds, limiting cargo usage. Many struggle to go up hills. And we aren't even getting into things like how bicycles and scooters are much easier to steal or steal from, or how unsafe walking can be at certain times of the day especially if you are a woman. Or having to ride a bus next to someone who smells like shit and is possibly deranged. Cars are freedom and power. There is way too much idolizing a sort of serf mindset here; have nothing, do what government tells you, be part of a crowd dependent on others to sustain you.

kergonath 6y ago
> Trying to cycle or scoot on slush filled roads or in 90 degree plus temperatures is a tedious chore; being unable to simply go out and bring home a 75 pound piece of unassembled furniture, or buying frozen foods in bulk sucks too. As far as I am concerned, I ride buses and trains and almost never cycle, and I don’t have a car. The cases you mention here would be solved much more rationally and efficiently by generalising home deliveries (with electric trucks). You don’t need to dimension your car for the furniture you need to carry around once every 5 years. You can just rent a van for a day then. > Cars are freedom and power. ...which come at a cost that too few people realise, and which our children will have to pay. > There is way too much idolizing a sort of serf mindset here; have nothing, do what government tells you, be part of a crowd dependent on others to sustain you. Now I have some ideological issues with this. Most governments I know encourage people to buy cars because it stimulates the economy and keeps some factories running, and some mates among money. Governments in general follow, not lead, these efforts. You already are part of a crowd and could not survive on your own. You are dependent on thousands of people you will never meet for the most insignificant of your daily activities. To paraphrase, there is way to much idolising a sort of tough survivor mindset around. The tough guy living in a forest with his gun (which he built? From ore he mined?) is a mirage. If society collapses, tough guys will die just as well as others. There has to be a middle ground, where one can be wise enough to enjoy the freedom that living in society provides without being entirely controlled by totalitarians.