18 ms·

Mood and cognition after low LSD doses: A placebo controlled dose-effect study

172 points by Tenoke 6y ago

vikramkr 6y ago
Overall interesting research, but as with any preliminary research, there are a lot of little details that aren't in the headline that are important to know when evaluating it. A couple points: 1) the inclusion criteria include prior use of psychedelic substances 2) the exclusion criteria filters out people with a previous bad experience of having panic attacks/anxiety/etc Those two factors alone are going to create a bias by including only people who are known to not have a negative reaction to the drug anyway, so if you've never dosed before, you cannot use this study to determine what your likely experience is. The study group is not reflective of you, and you might after dosing find yourself meeting the exclusion criteria. Another point: 3) participants stayed drug free for 3 months before the study This means that these results are less reflective of you if you continually microdose, as they do not account for tolerance etc over time.
Dirlewanger 6y ago
Isn't frequent LSD usage not good for the heart? Surprised there's nothing mentioned about it.
- nkozyra 6y ago
  Do you have some citation on this? Why bring it up unless you do?
  - entitydc 6y ago
    There are numerous, due to the receptors it activates. Look into research on fenfen or if you’re just looking to take a quick but detailed survey of the info, there’s a lot here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_and_5ht2b_agonism_induced_cardiotoxicity/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_... - this is mostly about psilocybin but they work on (mostly) the same receptors, but at different affinities. I say this as a huge proponent of psychedelic research and use, but with the qualification that very few things are universally safe for all, so we really should be as open as possible to studying not only the benefits, but also concerns, that come with psychedelic usage.
  - zer0tonin 6y ago
    He might not have a citation but I do: https://www.heffter.org/microdosing-lsd-research-potential/ https://www.heffter.org/microdosing-lsd-research-potential/ > A more serious issue concerns other receptors that LSD activates. In particular, LSD is a potent activator of the serotonin 5-HT2B receptor. Activation of that receptor stimulates growth of cardiac ventricular and valve tissue. You might want to be less aggressive when asking for citations in the future. Especially considering this is something you could have found in ~5 mins of googling.
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      Thanks for the citation, which is informative. It was considerate of you to provide it. Another minute of googling after your citation might lead to this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4086739/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4086739/ > You might want to be less aggressive when asking for citations in the future Or perhaps we're providing encouragement by supplying two citations. ;-) But it might not have been an aggressive intent. It might have been a consequence of anxiety, which I understand can be a consequence of micro-dosing LSD.
    - nkozyra 6y ago
      > You might want to be less aggressive when asking for citations in the future. Especially considering this is something you could have found in ~5 mins of googling. Why is it my responsibility to validate someone's vague claim?
      - entitydc 6y ago
        It’s not - it’s your responsibility (IMO) to be civil and constructive, which I’d argue your second sentence wasn’t. Your first sentence — while the subject isn’t hard to research for yourself — was fine as it added to the potential of the conversation by encouraging people to cite sources; your second was unnecessarily combative and I’d argue intended to induce some shame response in the OC, and didn’t bring any benefit to the community at large.
        6y ago
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Sort of a weird thing but when I'm talking to other people I often relay stuff in this manner to indicate low-confidence information. The idea is "if you worry about X, this might be relevant". The idea is we're helping each other search the state space of the world for what's true. After all, getting someone to always convince you of things that are true is a really high bar. That means that person is effectively a coach or tutor to you. Usually you have to pay someone to do that. This method allows us to exchange small messages that hint at information in a certain direction. I say this as someone who has two tabs of LSD in my fridge left and about 100 g of shrooms so you know I'm not an anti-entheogen dude.
- entitydc 6y ago
  LSD isn’t still fully understood there, but from what I gather Psilocybin is probably a greater concern (more agonism on HT2B than LSD). Neither show long term correlation with lower long term health outcomes (typically the reverse) but with microdosing being more prevalent and science being able to study more of this above ground, I’m hopeful we will have a better answer to this eventually. https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_and_5ht2b_agonism_induced_cardiotoxicity/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_... - which has a ton of assumptions in it, but is very forthright with those, is one of the better analyses I’ve seen on this topic, but if there’s more out there I’d love to see it. The gist that I’ve gathered so far is that for most people, going with a Fadiman-esque approach (2x/week dosing), combined with anecdotal data gathered from researchers conducting surveys, seems to suggest that it’s not egregiously unsafe, at the least. But still certainly worth paying attention to - a big part of the reason I cycle in and out of microdosing - it’s too helpful for depression, anxiety and disconnection to abandon completely, but there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >Isn't frequent LSD usage not good for the heart? Surprised there's nothing mentioned about it. IIRC (I haven't done LSD since 1987, although I used it quite a bit before then), it's not so much that LSD has an impact on the heart, it's the speed (methamphetamine) that's often added to LSD that can negatively impact heart function. In fact, I don't recall any issues with tachycardia when using "clean" LSD, while that wasn't unusual on LSD with speed. I'd add that negative interactions while under the influence of LSD (i.e., 'bad' trip) can certainly cause some tachycardia, as that circumstance can cause anxiety and fear. However, as long as one remains in a supportive, positive atmosphere, that's generally not an issue. I did a cursory look around and found this study[0] from July 2020 which did mention tachycardia in passing, but notes that: "LSD use can lead to hypothermia, piloerection, tachycardia with palpitation, an elevation of blood pressure, and hyperglycemia. The autonomic reactions listed above are not as significant as the mental and behavioral effects of LSD on the body." However, it's not clear whether those responses were observed or self-reported. This is important since, as I mentioned, LSD is often (by those vending it, rather than end users) "enhanced" with methamphetamine and it's also unclear whether or not such responses are limited to 'bad trips' or not. All that said, my experience is (obviously) anecdotal. If there are other studies (sadly, since LSD is a Schedule 1[1] substance, studying its effects is rare, at least in the US) with more direct observations, I'd love to see them. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482407/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482407/ [1] https://www.dea.gov/drug-scheduling https://www.dea.gov/drug-scheduling
  - Tenoke 6y ago
    >it's not so much that LSD has an impact on the heart, it's the speed (methamphetamine) that's often added to LSD that can negatively impact heart function. You can't add any significant amount of meth to a blotter, it's just too small, so this is not true. Also, speed is amphetamines but usually not methampthetamine. Maybe you are thinking of cases where other psychedelics are sold as LSD and which can sometimes be stuff like DOx which is technically amphetamine but quite far from speed?
- vikramkr 6y ago
  Why would it be mentioned? They weren't measuring long term/chronic impacts - they don't have the data to make any inferences about that.
- anaisbetts 6y ago
  With a Microdosing regimin, you take it 2x/week for a relatively short period of time, which is not enough to cause valvulopathy (the disorder you're referring to). Typically this is caused by people taking medication every day for an extended period of time (there are non-psychoactive medications that also are 5-HT2A agonists, which did cause this kind of damage before being pulled from the market)
- johnisgood 6y ago
  That would probably be from 25I-NBOMe from which many people died (cardiac arrest) which is commonly sold as LSD. If your LSD tastes, or smells, then it is possibly an NBOMe. From Wikipedia: > Due to its potency and much lower cost than so-called classical or traditional psychedelics, 25I-NBOMe blotters are sometimes misrepresented as, or mistaken for, LSD blotters.[17] Even small quantities of 25I-NBOMe can produce a large number of blotters. Vendors would import 25I-NBOMe in bulk (E.G 1 kilogram containers) and resell individual doses for a considerable profit --- On the other hand, what do we mean by frequent here? You develop tolerance quite rapidly to LSD. DMT on the other hand, no tolerance whatsoever, nor cross-tolerance. It is fascinating, in my opinion.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
throwaway287391 6y ago
So for attentiveness and anxiety, the 5 and 20 mcg doses both had a statistically significant effect vs. placebo, but the 10 mcg dose didn't. Should that lead me to believe that there's really a dose-response curve with two peaks near 5 and 20 and a valley in between, or should I be wondering whether they got "lucky" finding a significant result with either the 5/20mcg doses? (P-value was <1% for the significant results.) Is the former (multiple peaks in the response curve) known to happen in other drugs?
- Faint 6y ago
  With only 24 participants it's no wonder if there is noise in the results.
- vikramkr 6y ago
  They tested so many factors and so many data points that you could start to consider it unintentional P hacking. 24 people might also be underpowered. Best to view the findings as hypotheses to study further rather than concluaive results. I personally can't think of a drug that stops working and starts working again with dose like this, but if LSD did have that sort of profile, that would be a really fascinating new mechanistic insight. Probably just noise though
narag 6y ago
Are these results very different from something like caffeine?
- WalterSear 6y ago
  Yes.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
The author’s conclusion that the overall effect was generally positive seems strangely dismissive of the fact that anxiety and confusion scores were increased. Anecdotally, I had a few coworkers go through a phase of LSD microdosing enthusiasm. From my outside perspective, this study matches what I observed: Vaguely better moods associated with increased confusion. They were more immersed in their tasks, but that was partially because even easy tasks were more difficult on their microdosing days. The most concerning part of their experiment was how it distorted their own perceptions and judgment. They’d feel like they had arrived at great epiphanies or accomplished something impressive after solving trivial or obvious problems. They were convinced that their LSD days were full of breakthroughs and leaps forward, when in reality the drug was just making even small tasks feel like great victories. We politely hinted that they should stop when they struggled to keep up in meetings and conversations. For another perspective, Gwern has some self trials with LSD that also showed some worrisome negative trends: https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mistermann 6y ago
  > The most concerning part of their experiment was how it distorted their own perceptions and judgment. They’d feel like they had arrived at great epiphanies or accomplished something impressive after solving trivial or obvious problems. They were convinced that their LSD days were full of breakthroughs and leaps forward, when in reality the drug was just making even small tasks feel like great victories. We politely hinted that they should stop when they struggled to keep up in meetings and conversations. This sounds like extremely distorted cognitive behavior, when microdosing is "supposed to be" done at sub-perceptual levels (suggesting they weren't actually microdosing). Can you give some specific examples of the "great epiphanies", "making even small tasks feel like great victories", "they struggled to keep up in meetings and conversations" that you observed?
- feralimal 6y ago
  I'm very suspicious of the advocating of any sorts of drugs, hallucinogens included. Each to their own, but for myself, these are surely not something to be taking like a coffee or tea. And even then I don't think coffee, tea or processed sugar is something we should take regularly either! But I'm a bit hardcore. Pretty much the only circumstance that I think it is ok to take hallucinogens is when you believe you have adopted a negative approach in viewing reality, when you've gone down a cul de sac of sorts. If this is a day in day out experience perhaps a 'pattern interupt' is a good thing. Hallucinogens can be a way appraise the world and enjoy its many manifest glories - daily I look at trees or clouds and am in admiration of the wonder of nature in this experience. So, in the right circumstances, if LSD et al help you break out and get closer to one's more natural, feral state, then great :)
gridlockd 6y ago
Green jelly beans linked to acne.
- vikramkr 6y ago
  This article does seem a bit P hacking, and certainly wouldn't be enough to make treatment recommendations, but it might help on HN to link to the relevant XKCD and provide some context since I don't know how many other people are going to immediately remember the comic and understand that you're calling out evidence of intentional or unintentional P hacking. https://xkcd.com/882/ https://xkcd.com/882/
  - gridlockd 6y ago
    The gods help those who help themselves.
    - ducttapecrown 6y ago
      The people who help other people help other people.
      - gridlockd 6y ago
        gods > people
        vikramkr 6y ago
        how statistically significant is that conclusion though
        gridlockd 6y ago
        five sigma
vikramkr 6y ago
Its best to consider the findings here as hypotheses for further testing brother than results. Look at just how many factors were measured - I didn't realize this during my first skim through but for example the "positive mood" reported is just one out of over 20 subjective measures they evaluated, and consider they only had 20 something people in the trials. You're going to start finding results just by chance when you test that many things. Uncharitably, you might call it p hacking
throwaway967 6y ago
My anecdotal experience: I felt trapped in an awful PhD program (a well-known physics dept in the US) with an extremely toxic advisor. After years of getting yelled at for small mistakes with little or no feedback, insane hours (weekend/holiday meetings and deadlines) and zero growth I had completely lost any confidence. I became depressed, overweight, afraid to talk to people, etc. I'm weary of drugs, even caffeine, but microdosing helped me regain some sense of direction and a bit of confidence to move forward. It is like simulated annealing as gwern describes. My mind was trapped in a minima and I needed a chemical shock to move it elsewhere. As a side-note, I finished my PhD and am job hunting. Now, I'm exponentially happier around friends and family. I'm still rebuilding my confidence but I've stopped microdosing because I don't feel the need.
- person_of_color 6y ago
  So do you celebrate bicycle day?
  - throwaway967 6y ago
    Nope, this is the first I've heard of it. I've never taken a regular dose.
jonplackett 6y ago
How much is a normal dose of LSD, for reference?
- brutusborn 6y ago
  50-150 micrograms according to Erowid. https://erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_dose.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_dose.shtml
- entitydc 6y ago
  ~100μg.
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  roughly 100-300 mcg
- pksebben 6y ago
  to add a little context; ~100ug is a solid single dose ~75ug is a light dose ~25ug is just a bit above threshold - this is generally the upper range for a microdose. ~10-15ug are the absolute minimum for any effect at all. That said, the short-term tolerance curve is incredibly steep. What ends up happening with a lot of folks who microdose for extended periods is that they'll increase the 'micro' until they make a rounding error and then all of a sudden your desk is melting and your mouse has a half-minute delay. Best practices are to stagger days and take occasional three-to-four day long breaks.
pksebben 6y ago
For anyone who wants further reading, a little 'closer to the metal', here's the (paywall-free) book by the chemist who discovered the substance: https://maps.org/images/pdf/books/lsdmyproblemchild.pdf https://maps.org/images/pdf/books/lsdmyproblemchild.pdf
zafka 6y ago
Where does one buy the LSD for these studies?
- pksebben 6y ago
  Depends on jurisdiction. In the US you have to get approval from your state and the DEA (which for a long time has meant, for most substances, fuhgeddaboudit). https://research-compliance.umich.edu/controlled-substances-research https://research-compliance.umich.edu/controlled-substances-...
andy_ppp 6y ago
Exercise and diet are the only things that actually help.
waterhouse 6y ago
> Most apparent affects are present following 20 mcg of LSD. Did they just confuse "affect" with "effect" in the highlights section of something that got published in a journal?
mastrsushi 6y ago
HackerNews is opposite world where "everyone" codes in Rust and justifies self medicating with psychedelics to remediate depression. Here comes the downvotes
1MachineElf 6y ago
Given the choice, I'd choose mega-dosing over micro-dosing. Never around work, though.

172 points by Tenoke 6y ago

Overall interesting research, but as with any preliminary research, there are a lot of little details that aren't in the headline that are important to know when evaluating it. A couple points: 1) the inclusion criteria include prior use of psychedelic substances 2) the exclusion criteria filters out people with a previous bad experience of having panic attacks/anxiety/etc Those two factors alone are going to create a bias by including only people who are known to not have a negative reaction to the drug anyway, so if you've never dosed before, you cannot use this study to determine what your likely experience is. The study group is not reflective of you, and you might after dosing find yourself meeting the exclusion criteria. Another point: 3) participants stayed drug free for 3 months before the study This means that these results are less reflective of you if you continually microdose, as they do not account for tolerance etc over time.

Dirlewanger 6y ago

Isn't frequent LSD usage not good for the heart? Surprised there's nothing mentioned about it.

nkozyra 6y ago
Do you have some citation on this? Why bring it up unless you do?
- entitydc 6y ago
  There are numerous, due to the receptors it activates. Look into research on fenfen or if you’re just looking to take a quick but detailed survey of the info, there’s a lot here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_and_5ht2b_agonism_induced_cardiotoxicity/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_... - this is mostly about psilocybin but they work on (mostly) the same receptors, but at different affinities. I say this as a huge proponent of psychedelic research and use, but with the qualification that very few things are universally safe for all, so we really should be as open as possible to studying not only the benefits, but also concerns, that come with psychedelic usage.
- zer0tonin 6y ago
  He might not have a citation but I do: https://www.heffter.org/microdosing-lsd-research-potential/ https://www.heffter.org/microdosing-lsd-research-potential/ > A more serious issue concerns other receptors that LSD activates. In particular, LSD is a potent activator of the serotonin 5-HT2B receptor. Activation of that receptor stimulates growth of cardiac ventricular and valve tissue. You might want to be less aggressive when asking for citations in the future. Especially considering this is something you could have found in ~5 mins of googling.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    Thanks for the citation, which is informative. It was considerate of you to provide it. Another minute of googling after your citation might lead to this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4086739/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4086739/ > You might want to be less aggressive when asking for citations in the future Or perhaps we're providing encouragement by supplying two citations. ;-) But it might not have been an aggressive intent. It might have been a consequence of anxiety, which I understand can be a consequence of micro-dosing LSD.
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    > You might want to be less aggressive when asking for citations in the future. Especially considering this is something you could have found in ~5 mins of googling. Why is it my responsibility to validate someone's vague claim?
    - entitydc 6y ago
      It’s not - it’s your responsibility (IMO) to be civil and constructive, which I’d argue your second sentence wasn’t. Your first sentence — while the subject isn’t hard to research for yourself — was fine as it added to the potential of the conversation by encouraging people to cite sources; your second was unnecessarily combative and I’d argue intended to induce some shame response in the OC, and didn’t bring any benefit to the community at large.
      - 6y ago
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Sort of a weird thing but when I'm talking to other people I often relay stuff in this manner to indicate low-confidence information. The idea is "if you worry about X, this might be relevant". The idea is we're helping each other search the state space of the world for what's true. After all, getting someone to always convince you of things that are true is a really high bar. That means that person is effectively a coach or tutor to you. Usually you have to pay someone to do that. This method allows us to exchange small messages that hint at information in a certain direction. I say this as someone who has two tabs of LSD in my fridge left and about 100 g of shrooms so you know I'm not an anti-entheogen dude.
entitydc 6y ago
LSD isn’t still fully understood there, but from what I gather Psilocybin is probably a greater concern (more agonism on HT2B than LSD). Neither show long term correlation with lower long term health outcomes (typically the reverse) but with microdosing being more prevalent and science being able to study more of this above ground, I’m hopeful we will have a better answer to this eventually. https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_and_5ht2b_agonism_induced_cardiotoxicity/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/2mqqww/psilocin_... - which has a ton of assumptions in it, but is very forthright with those, is one of the better analyses I’ve seen on this topic, but if there’s more out there I’d love to see it. The gist that I’ve gathered so far is that for most people, going with a Fadiman-esque approach (2x/week dosing), combined with anecdotal data gathered from researchers conducting surveys, seems to suggest that it’s not egregiously unsafe, at the least. But still certainly worth paying attention to - a big part of the reason I cycle in and out of microdosing - it’s too helpful for depression, anxiety and disconnection to abandon completely, but there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
nobody9999 6y ago
>Isn't frequent LSD usage not good for the heart? Surprised there's nothing mentioned about it. IIRC (I haven't done LSD since 1987, although I used it quite a bit before then), it's not so much that LSD has an impact on the heart, it's the speed (methamphetamine) that's often added to LSD that can negatively impact heart function. In fact, I don't recall any issues with tachycardia when using "clean" LSD, while that wasn't unusual on LSD with speed. I'd add that negative interactions while under the influence of LSD (i.e., 'bad' trip) can certainly cause some tachycardia, as that circumstance can cause anxiety and fear. However, as long as one remains in a supportive, positive atmosphere, that's generally not an issue. I did a cursory look around and found this study[0] from July 2020 which did mention tachycardia in passing, but notes that: "LSD use can lead to hypothermia, piloerection, tachycardia with palpitation, an elevation of blood pressure, and hyperglycemia. The autonomic reactions listed above are not as significant as the mental and behavioral effects of LSD on the body." However, it's not clear whether those responses were observed or self-reported. This is important since, as I mentioned, LSD is often (by those vending it, rather than end users) "enhanced" with methamphetamine and it's also unclear whether or not such responses are limited to 'bad trips' or not. All that said, my experience is (obviously) anecdotal. If there are other studies (sadly, since LSD is a Schedule 1[1] substance, studying its effects is rare, at least in the US) with more direct observations, I'd love to see them. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482407/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482407/ [1] https://www.dea.gov/drug-scheduling https://www.dea.gov/drug-scheduling
- Tenoke 6y ago
  >it's not so much that LSD has an impact on the heart, it's the speed (methamphetamine) that's often added to LSD that can negatively impact heart function. You can't add any significant amount of meth to a blotter, it's just too small, so this is not true. Also, speed is amphetamines but usually not methampthetamine. Maybe you are thinking of cases where other psychedelics are sold as LSD and which can sometimes be stuff like DOx which is technically amphetamine but quite far from speed?
vikramkr 6y ago
Why would it be mentioned? They weren't measuring long term/chronic impacts - they don't have the data to make any inferences about that.
anaisbetts 6y ago
With a Microdosing regimin, you take it 2x/week for a relatively short period of time, which is not enough to cause valvulopathy (the disorder you're referring to). Typically this is caused by people taking medication every day for an extended period of time (there are non-psychoactive medications that also are 5-HT2A agonists, which did cause this kind of damage before being pulled from the market)
johnisgood 6y ago
That would probably be from 25I-NBOMe from which many people died (cardiac arrest) which is commonly sold as LSD. If your LSD tastes, or smells, then it is possibly an NBOMe. From Wikipedia: > Due to its potency and much lower cost than so-called classical or traditional psychedelics, 25I-NBOMe blotters are sometimes misrepresented as, or mistaken for, LSD blotters.[17] Even small quantities of 25I-NBOMe can produce a large number of blotters. Vendors would import 25I-NBOMe in bulk (E.G 1 kilogram containers) and resell individual doses for a considerable profit --- On the other hand, what do we mean by frequent here? You develop tolerance quite rapidly to LSD. DMT on the other hand, no tolerance whatsoever, nor cross-tolerance. It is fascinating, in my opinion.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

throwaway287391 6y ago

So for attentiveness and anxiety, the 5 and 20 mcg doses both had a statistically significant effect vs. placebo, but the 10 mcg dose didn't. Should that lead me to believe that there's really a dose-response curve with two peaks near 5 and 20 and a valley in between, or should I be wondering whether they got "lucky" finding a significant result with either the 5/20mcg doses? (P-value was <1% for the significant results.) Is the former (multiple peaks in the response curve) known to happen in other drugs?

Faint 6y ago
With only 24 participants it's no wonder if there is noise in the results.
vikramkr 6y ago
They tested so many factors and so many data points that you could start to consider it unintentional P hacking. 24 people might also be underpowered. Best to view the findings as hypotheses to study further rather than concluaive results. I personally can't think of a drug that stops working and starts working again with dose like this, but if LSD did have that sort of profile, that would be a really fascinating new mechanistic insight. Probably just noise though

narag 6y ago

Are these results very different from something like caffeine?

WalterSear 6y ago
Yes.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

The author’s conclusion that the overall effect was generally positive seems strangely dismissive of the fact that anxiety and confusion scores were increased. Anecdotally, I had a few coworkers go through a phase of LSD microdosing enthusiasm. From my outside perspective, this study matches what I observed: Vaguely better moods associated with increased confusion. They were more immersed in their tasks, but that was partially because even easy tasks were more difficult on their microdosing days. The most concerning part of their experiment was how it distorted their own perceptions and judgment. They’d feel like they had arrived at great epiphanies or accomplished something impressive after solving trivial or obvious problems. They were convinced that their LSD days were full of breakthroughs and leaps forward, when in reality the drug was just making even small tasks feel like great victories. We politely hinted that they should stop when they struggled to keep up in meetings and conversations. For another perspective, Gwern has some self trials with LSD that also showed some worrisome negative trends: https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mistermann 6y ago
> The most concerning part of their experiment was how it distorted their own perceptions and judgment. They’d feel like they had arrived at great epiphanies or accomplished something impressive after solving trivial or obvious problems. They were convinced that their LSD days were full of breakthroughs and leaps forward, when in reality the drug was just making even small tasks feel like great victories. We politely hinted that they should stop when they struggled to keep up in meetings and conversations. This sounds like extremely distorted cognitive behavior, when microdosing is "supposed to be" done at sub-perceptual levels (suggesting they weren't actually microdosing). Can you give some specific examples of the "great epiphanies", "making even small tasks feel like great victories", "they struggled to keep up in meetings and conversations" that you observed?
feralimal 6y ago
I'm very suspicious of the advocating of any sorts of drugs, hallucinogens included. Each to their own, but for myself, these are surely not something to be taking like a coffee or tea. And even then I don't think coffee, tea or processed sugar is something we should take regularly either! But I'm a bit hardcore. Pretty much the only circumstance that I think it is ok to take hallucinogens is when you believe you have adopted a negative approach in viewing reality, when you've gone down a cul de sac of sorts. If this is a day in day out experience perhaps a 'pattern interupt' is a good thing. Hallucinogens can be a way appraise the world and enjoy its many manifest glories - daily I look at trees or clouds and am in admiration of the wonder of nature in this experience. So, in the right circumstances, if LSD et al help you break out and get closer to one's more natural, feral state, then great :)

gridlockd 6y ago

Green jelly beans linked to acne.

vikramkr 6y ago
This article does seem a bit P hacking, and certainly wouldn't be enough to make treatment recommendations, but it might help on HN to link to the relevant XKCD and provide some context since I don't know how many other people are going to immediately remember the comic and understand that you're calling out evidence of intentional or unintentional P hacking. https://xkcd.com/882/ https://xkcd.com/882/
- gridlockd 6y ago
  The gods help those who help themselves.
  - ducttapecrown 6y ago
    The people who help other people help other people.
    - gridlockd 6y ago
      gods > people
      - vikramkr 6y ago
        how statistically significant is that conclusion though
        gridlockd 6y ago
        five sigma

vikramkr 6y ago

Its best to consider the findings here as hypotheses for further testing brother than results. Look at just how many factors were measured - I didn't realize this during my first skim through but for example the "positive mood" reported is just one out of over 20 subjective measures they evaluated, and consider they only had 20 something people in the trials. You're going to start finding results just by chance when you test that many things. Uncharitably, you might call it p hacking

throwaway967 6y ago

My anecdotal experience: I felt trapped in an awful PhD program (a well-known physics dept in the US) with an extremely toxic advisor. After years of getting yelled at for small mistakes with little or no feedback, insane hours (weekend/holiday meetings and deadlines) and zero growth I had completely lost any confidence. I became depressed, overweight, afraid to talk to people, etc. I'm weary of drugs, even caffeine, but microdosing helped me regain some sense of direction and a bit of confidence to move forward. It is like simulated annealing as gwern describes. My mind was trapped in a minima and I needed a chemical shock to move it elsewhere. As a side-note, I finished my PhD and am job hunting. Now, I'm exponentially happier around friends and family. I'm still rebuilding my confidence but I've stopped microdosing because I don't feel the need.

person_of_color 6y ago
So do you celebrate bicycle day?
- throwaway967 6y ago
  Nope, this is the first I've heard of it. I've never taken a regular dose.

jonplackett 6y ago

How much is a normal dose of LSD, for reference?

brutusborn 6y ago
50-150 micrograms according to Erowid. https://erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_dose.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_dose.shtml
entitydc 6y ago
~100μg.
0-_-0 6y ago
roughly 100-300 mcg
pksebben 6y ago
to add a little context; ~100ug is a solid single dose ~75ug is a light dose ~25ug is just a bit above threshold - this is generally the upper range for a microdose. ~10-15ug are the absolute minimum for any effect at all. That said, the short-term tolerance curve is incredibly steep. What ends up happening with a lot of folks who microdose for extended periods is that they'll increase the 'micro' until they make a rounding error and then all of a sudden your desk is melting and your mouse has a half-minute delay. Best practices are to stagger days and take occasional three-to-four day long breaks.

pksebben 6y ago

For anyone who wants further reading, a little 'closer to the metal', here's the (paywall-free) book by the chemist who discovered the substance: https://maps.org/images/pdf/books/lsdmyproblemchild.pdf https://maps.org/images/pdf/books/lsdmyproblemchild.pdf

zafka 6y ago

Where does one buy the LSD for these studies?

pksebben 6y ago
Depends on jurisdiction. In the US you have to get approval from your state and the DEA (which for a long time has meant, for most substances, fuhgeddaboudit). https://research-compliance.umich.edu/controlled-substances-research https://research-compliance.umich.edu/controlled-substances-...

andy_ppp 6y ago

Exercise and diet are the only things that actually help.

waterhouse 6y ago

> Most apparent affects are present following 20 mcg of LSD. Did they just confuse "affect" with "effect" in the highlights section of something that got published in a journal?

mastrsushi 6y ago

HackerNews is opposite world where "everyone" codes in Rust and justifies self medicating with psychedelics to remediate depression. Here comes the downvotes

1MachineElf 6y ago

Given the choice, I'd choose mega-dosing over micro-dosing. Never around work, though.