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Higher taxes won’t get stable and fast internet (or anything else being efficient) - neighboring Germany has high taxes, expensive services and very slow intern

by harha 6y ago

Higher taxes won’t get stable and fast internet (or anything else being efficient) - neighboring Germany has high taxes, expensive services and very slow internet even within cities. Also the trains are notoriously unpunctual, and expensive compared to other EU countries. The cause of the internet seems to be a mix of the mobile frequency auctions that didn’t leave any money for a good network combined with low competition. The trains also have pretty bad incentives for infrastructure, eg they can have the state pay for rebuilding a line and not for maintaining it, so they wait till it breaks. The Swiss model seems to be to think of the consequences of policies before putting them in place, the lower taxes seem to be more of a result of that. (I’ve lived in all three countries, this is my impression)

adev_ 6y ago
> The Swiss model seems to be to think of the consequences of policies before putting them in place, the lower taxes seem to be more of a result of that. Outside of taxes, it is also a matter of political choices The Swiss took the decision to develop the train as a first transport choice nationally... Even trucks transiting through Switzerland are loaded on trains. And the result is there: They have a good network with a good service that unify the country. That a strategy totally at the opposite of what USA and many European countries chose to do in the 90's: Close as many small train lines as possible and develop road transport.
- harha 6y ago
  I suspect the Swiss calculated that individual transportation doesn’t scale well. The US build ever bigger highways (I recall a summit at Stanford on clean energy in 2014 where some guy from McKinsey claimed that the solution to all problems is to increase highway throughout by having self driving cars closer to each other - never would it have occurred to him or anyone on the panel to replace cars with a train or bus) and Germany somehow tries to deal with their bad infrastructure choices after deciding to be car centric in favor of their car industry for many years. Edit: fun little note: I actually wanted to ask the McKinsey guy what his take on public transportation was, but wasn’t chosen for the q&a since I was sitting in the very back after I arrived late due to some issue on the Caltrain.
MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
> The Swiss model seems to be to think of the consequences of policies before putting them in place, the lower taxes seem to be more of a result of that. This is a very good point. I suspect that because decision making is very local, they have functioning feedback loops: so you decided to spend too much money on a new fire truck? Well now you can't pay for the sports field renovations. People eventually learn.
- harha 6y ago
  Yes you’re much closer to deciding on the people spending your money, since it is clear what is cantonal and what is state responsibility and they tax you very clearly visible and separately. That way you don’t need to blindly trust the claims of the different politicians, you see the result directly.
patrickk 6y ago
> The cause of the internet seems to be a mix of the mobile frequency auctions that didn’t leave any money for a good network combined with low competition. The version I read for Germany was that when the mobile broadband spectrum was originally auctioned off, the purchase price for the spectrum was too high. So the pensioners and other investors who bought in demanded a juicy return on investment despite overpaying, resulting in high prices and presumably less money for investments in the network. For the fixed line broadband network in Germany, its quite substandard despite the country being generally good at infrastructure. The reason can be traced back to corruption, where a decision was made to rollout copper backbone instead of fiber optic, which was the original decision. Article in German but copy and paste with Google translate: https://www.wiwo.de/politik/deutschland/langsames-internet-ist-dieser-mann-an-allem-schuld/20859440.html https://www.wiwo.de/politik/deutschland/langsames-internet-i...
- harha 6y ago
  I have the impression that corruption and being overly friendly towards big corporations seems to be quite the issue, compared to other places I know well the infrastructure is pretty bad (though other large European countries aren't much better - UK, France). The auction could have easily been fixed, by imposing and enforcing strict rules on maximum prices, minimum coverage and mandating in-country roaming. After all the frequencies should benefit the whole public. With such rules the outcome would have been a much better network, allowing for growth in other regions. The article you've shared is very interesting, would be helpful if more Germans were informed about this.
  - patrickk 6y ago
    Yes the copper story instead of fiber optic is really important to understand. I did some digging after suffering through poor internet in a major German city for some years now.

by harha 6y ago

adev_ 6y ago

> The Swiss model seems to be to think of the consequences of policies before putting them in place, the lower taxes seem to be more of a result of that. Outside of taxes, it is also a matter of political choices The Swiss took the decision to develop the train as a first transport choice nationally... Even trucks transiting through Switzerland are loaded on trains. And the result is there: They have a good network with a good service that unify the country. That a strategy totally at the opposite of what USA and many European countries chose to do in the 90's: Close as many small train lines as possible and develop road transport.

harha 6y ago
I suspect the Swiss calculated that individual transportation doesn’t scale well. The US build ever bigger highways (I recall a summit at Stanford on clean energy in 2014 where some guy from McKinsey claimed that the solution to all problems is to increase highway throughout by having self driving cars closer to each other - never would it have occurred to him or anyone on the panel to replace cars with a train or bus) and Germany somehow tries to deal with their bad infrastructure choices after deciding to be car centric in favor of their car industry for many years. Edit: fun little note: I actually wanted to ask the McKinsey guy what his take on public transportation was, but wasn’t chosen for the q&a since I was sitting in the very back after I arrived late due to some issue on the Caltrain.

MrBuddyCasino 6y ago

> The Swiss model seems to be to think of the consequences of policies before putting them in place, the lower taxes seem to be more of a result of that. This is a very good point. I suspect that because decision making is very local, they have functioning feedback loops: so you decided to spend too much money on a new fire truck? Well now you can't pay for the sports field renovations. People eventually learn.

harha 6y ago
Yes you’re much closer to deciding on the people spending your money, since it is clear what is cantonal and what is state responsibility and they tax you very clearly visible and separately. That way you don’t need to blindly trust the claims of the different politicians, you see the result directly.

patrickk 6y ago

> The cause of the internet seems to be a mix of the mobile frequency auctions that didn’t leave any money for a good network combined with low competition. The version I read for Germany was that when the mobile broadband spectrum was originally auctioned off, the purchase price for the spectrum was too high. So the pensioners and other investors who bought in demanded a juicy return on investment despite overpaying, resulting in high prices and presumably less money for investments in the network. For the fixed line broadband network in Germany, its quite substandard despite the country being generally good at infrastructure. The reason can be traced back to corruption, where a decision was made to rollout copper backbone instead of fiber optic, which was the original decision. Article in German but copy and paste with Google translate: https://www.wiwo.de/politik/deutschland/langsames-internet-ist-dieser-mann-an-allem-schuld/20859440.html https://www.wiwo.de/politik/deutschland/langsames-internet-i...

harha 6y ago
I have the impression that corruption and being overly friendly towards big corporations seems to be quite the issue, compared to other places I know well the infrastructure is pretty bad (though other large European countries aren't much better - UK, France). The auction could have easily been fixed, by imposing and enforcing strict rules on maximum prices, minimum coverage and mandating in-country roaming. After all the frequencies should benefit the whole public. With such rules the outcome would have been a much better network, allowing for growth in other regions. The article you've shared is very interesting, would be helpful if more Germans were informed about this.
- patrickk 6y ago
  Yes the copper story instead of fiber optic is really important to understand. I did some digging after suffering through poor internet in a major German city for some years now.