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I'm French and I think I read this letter at school before, not 100% sure it's a long time ago, but I remember learning about her correctly. We do learn about t

I'm French and I think I read this letter at school before, not 100% sure it's a long time ago, but I remember learning about her correctly. We do learn about the atrocities before, during, and after the revolution. And no one is only good or bad. History is not a Disney movie.

watwut 6y ago
It might be that non-french learn about it less. I grew in post-communist block and French Revolution was basically "good peasants rose up for libertee fraternite and egualite, against bad aristocracy". That is however not French victors writing history, it is more of foreign Communists writing history.
- TheTrueTDF 6y ago
  I would like to point out that we also are taught that "good peasants rose up for liberte fraternite and egualite, against bad aristocracy" (is there a good aristocracy ?), but we are taught of the massacres and other bad aspects too. The revolution is still a founding moment of the french "identity", and apart from a few late-to-the-party 2020's monarchists, we pretty much all believe that we did the right thing by kicking out the nobility.
  - watwut 6y ago
    We were not taught massacres and such is the difference I mean. That Robespierre was not like "good guy" or that French Revolution is actually completely complicated event with many fighting parties was completely unsaid. There was French Revolution and then was the freedom and happiness, basically. > is there a good aristocracy I think that feudalism is fundamentally bad. But, I think that answer to this question is yes, there are non-evil aristocrats. Aristocracy is class you get born into, set of duties and privileges. Aristocracy holds power and have interests opposed to those who live under them. The image where all individuals belonging to that group are basically ugly and evil is not correct. It is not like all the the tortured and executed aristocrats deserved that. And then there is question of huge amount of non-aristocratic victims of revolution which went completely unmentioned in our version of history.
    - me_me_me 6y ago
      Lets take it to extreme, there were 'not evil' guards in concentration camps. They were just doing their job and minding their own business. Are they to blame for the holocaust? Well no, but they help to run it. Aristocracy might not be made up 100% of evil mustache twirling villains, but they benefit from fruits of other's toils. Lets consider much much milder version of the problem that we can relate. Nestle was caught buying chocolate from sources using child labor and child slaves. Currently AFAIK only Kitkat is using fair-trade chocolate as a token gesture. Anything else is using chocolate with some fake symbols set up by PR companies funded by nestle et al. Are you eating their - non kitkat - chocolate product supporting child slavery? Even though you might have done it fully ignorant of the fact. Are you going to buy their stuff knowing that now? Is it feasible to live in our society and not buy stuff from corporations that do things like that?
      - watwut 6y ago
        I see massive difference between concentration camps guard and aristocracy. The big one is that all camps guard have chosen to do that. The guards in death camps were voluntary members of SS - the elite German armed group. Compared to that, not just that aristocracy is hereditary, but they had duties beyond "kill people". They were backbone of army, yes, but still it is not just that. I think that making comparison between aristocracy and guards in concentration camps is more of political then actual attempt at reasonale historical analysios.
        me_me_me 6y ago
        Well I don't think you are being honest. You didn't address the other extreme which is the whole sourcing of chocolate by Nestle. The point i am trying to flesh out is how much one can be blamed for a big picture. One cannot change the world only affect it in a tiniest way. But when a majority of a group/class are pushing same way they can affect history.
        watwut 6y ago
        I am not being honest because I stopped at addressing nazi guards (which I know a lot about) and did not addressed Nestle (which I dont know much about and would have to do research)? That is not honest argument, that is absurd accusation. > The point i am trying to flesh out is how much one can be blamed for a big picture. One cannot change the world only affect it in a tiniest way. But when a majority of a group/class are pushing same way they can affect history. That was not apparent from your comment. But also, I think that you are using straw idea of aristocracy rather then real societal system as it existed in various periods. The whole thread started with my look at real world historical aristocracy. You used made up nazi guard that was "just doing job" to tilt big picture, but it was not fair comparison. All this is under article about Marie Antionette who specifically I don't really think was evil.

watwut 6y ago

It might be that non-french learn about it less. I grew in post-communist block and French Revolution was basically "good peasants rose up for libertee fraternite and egualite, against bad aristocracy". That is however not French victors writing history, it is more of foreign Communists writing history.

TheTrueTDF 6y ago
I would like to point out that we also are taught that "good peasants rose up for liberte fraternite and egualite, against bad aristocracy" (is there a good aristocracy ?), but we are taught of the massacres and other bad aspects too. The revolution is still a founding moment of the french "identity", and apart from a few late-to-the-party 2020's monarchists, we pretty much all believe that we did the right thing by kicking out the nobility.
- watwut 6y ago
  We were not taught massacres and such is the difference I mean. That Robespierre was not like "good guy" or that French Revolution is actually completely complicated event with many fighting parties was completely unsaid. There was French Revolution and then was the freedom and happiness, basically. > is there a good aristocracy I think that feudalism is fundamentally bad. But, I think that answer to this question is yes, there are non-evil aristocrats. Aristocracy is class you get born into, set of duties and privileges. Aristocracy holds power and have interests opposed to those who live under them. The image where all individuals belonging to that group are basically ugly and evil is not correct. It is not like all the the tortured and executed aristocrats deserved that. And then there is question of huge amount of non-aristocratic victims of revolution which went completely unmentioned in our version of history.
  - me_me_me 6y ago
    Lets take it to extreme, there were 'not evil' guards in concentration camps. They were just doing their job and minding their own business. Are they to blame for the holocaust? Well no, but they help to run it. Aristocracy might not be made up 100% of evil mustache twirling villains, but they benefit from fruits of other's toils. Lets consider much much milder version of the problem that we can relate. Nestle was caught buying chocolate from sources using child labor and child slaves. Currently AFAIK only Kitkat is using fair-trade chocolate as a token gesture. Anything else is using chocolate with some fake symbols set up by PR companies funded by nestle et al. Are you eating their - non kitkat - chocolate product supporting child slavery? Even though you might have done it fully ignorant of the fact. Are you going to buy their stuff knowing that now? Is it feasible to live in our society and not buy stuff from corporations that do things like that?
    - watwut 6y ago
      I see massive difference between concentration camps guard and aristocracy. The big one is that all camps guard have chosen to do that. The guards in death camps were voluntary members of SS - the elite German armed group. Compared to that, not just that aristocracy is hereditary, but they had duties beyond "kill people". They were backbone of army, yes, but still it is not just that. I think that making comparison between aristocracy and guards in concentration camps is more of political then actual attempt at reasonale historical analysios.
      - me_me_me 6y ago
        Well I don't think you are being honest. You didn't address the other extreme which is the whole sourcing of chocolate by Nestle. The point i am trying to flesh out is how much one can be blamed for a big picture. One cannot change the world only affect it in a tiniest way. But when a majority of a group/class are pushing same way they can affect history.
        watwut 6y ago
        I am not being honest because I stopped at addressing nazi guards (which I know a lot about) and did not addressed Nestle (which I dont know much about and would have to do research)? That is not honest argument, that is absurd accusation. > The point i am trying to flesh out is how much one can be blamed for a big picture. One cannot change the world only affect it in a tiniest way. But when a majority of a group/class are pushing same way they can affect history. That was not apparent from your comment. But also, I think that you are using straw idea of aristocracy rather then real societal system as it existed in various periods. The whole thread started with my look at real world historical aristocracy. You used made up nazi guard that was "just doing job" to tilt big picture, but it was not fair comparison. All this is under article about Marie Antionette who specifically I don't really think was evil.