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But it hasn’t hurt Python popularity.

bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
Personally it’s one of reasons I’m using python less and less and JavaScript more and more. I just can’t stand the white space.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  The difference between Python and YAML is that Python doesn't have a semantically-equivalent, non-indentation-sensitive presentation style. How you choose to view and work with YAML is a choice that doesn't need to have any impact on what you share with others and how they choose to view and work with it. While I'm not usually fond of “you're holding it wrong” arguments, that's pretty much the proper response to complaints about YAML’s indentation sensitivity, since you can work with YAML in a style which isn't indentation sensitive without anyone you share data with seeing anything different.
cageface 6y ago
It's possible that Python might be more popular than it is without this feature. It's certainly one of the main reasons I avoid it.
acdha 6y ago
Python’s grammar is well defined and has far more validation. YAML has multiple ways to define the same output and since it makes almost anything legal there’s not a way for a tool to disambiguate. For example, if you double-indent something, YAML will just silently assume you wanted a nested data structure but Python will throw an indentation error. That causes issues in many editors when copy-and-pasting. That pattern continues where Python uses indentation to force clarity and consistency but still has syntax which removes ambiguity. A key one is that Python requires quoting data, avoiding all of the common data loss in YAML when people happen to enter data with meaning in YAML (country=no, names with equal signs or colons, etc.), and you have to open and close structures with syntax rather than just indentation. The most analogous Python bug is when a statement immediately after an if, nested def, etc. is one level of indentation than intended. That definitely happens but a fair fraction of the time it’s immediately obvious because it usually fails due to something like a variable not being in scope. YAML consumers are more likely to ignore extra elements so it’s easier to miss things like that for a while unless you have an unusually strict validation stage.

Personally it’s one of reasons I’m using python less and less and JavaScript more and more. I just can’t stand the white space.

dragonwriter 6y ago
The difference between Python and YAML is that Python doesn't have a semantically-equivalent, non-indentation-sensitive presentation style. How you choose to view and work with YAML is a choice that doesn't need to have any impact on what you share with others and how they choose to view and work with it. While I'm not usually fond of “you're holding it wrong” arguments, that's pretty much the proper response to complaints about YAML’s indentation sensitivity, since you can work with YAML in a style which isn't indentation sensitive without anyone you share data with seeing anything different.

cageface 6y ago

It's possible that Python might be more popular than it is without this feature. It's certainly one of the main reasons I avoid it.

acdha 6y ago

Python’s grammar is well defined and has far more validation. YAML has multiple ways to define the same output and since it makes almost anything legal there’s not a way for a tool to disambiguate. For example, if you double-indent something, YAML will just silently assume you wanted a nested data structure but Python will throw an indentation error. That causes issues in many editors when copy-and-pasting. That pattern continues where Python uses indentation to force clarity and consistency but still has syntax which removes ambiguity. A key one is that Python requires quoting data, avoiding all of the common data loss in YAML when people happen to enter data with meaning in YAML (country=no, names with equal signs or colons, etc.), and you have to open and close structures with syntax rather than just indentation. The most analogous Python bug is when a statement immediately after an if, nested def, etc. is one level of indentation than intended. That definitely happens but a fair fraction of the time it’s immediately obvious because it usually fails due to something like a variable not being in scope. YAML consumers are more likely to ignore extra elements so it’s easier to miss things like that for a while unless you have an unusually strict validation stage.