6 ms·

I wish instead to live in a society that doesn’t have low-level court appearances to incentivize.

by Lammy 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago
> I wish instead to live in a society that doesn’t have low-level court appearances to incentivize. Abolish presumption of innocence for low-level offenses and jump straight to punishement and you do away with low-level court appearances to incentivize. I kinda like the status quo by comparison, but YMMV.
- Lammy 6y ago
  That's almost exactly the opposite of what I had in mind. I don't believe in "low-level offenses" as anything but tools to perpetuate inequality and would love to see the concept eliminated. Any offense benign enough to be considered "low-level" is not indicative of bad intention to me, because I assume any person choosing to do evil will go big or go home :)
  - praxulus 6y ago
    What should we do about actions that aren't malicious, but are nevertheless harmful or put others at risk? Littering, mild traffic violations, etc.
    - Lammy 6y ago
      We should enrich everybody. All of those examples are symptoms of people short on time, which in our society is usually synonymous with short on money. I don't think many people would choose to drive recklessly while eating and tossing their trash out the window. That's something I'd expect from a person who has to be at work at EARLY:00 on-the-dot, maybe working multiple jobs, but generally just trying to survive another day.
      - bawolff 6y ago
        That sounds rediculous. Plenty of rich people are assholes too. If anything, i think the sterotype would be entitled rich (or at least not poor) people who think the rules don't apply to them are more likely to commit "low-level" offenses.
      - InitialLastName 6y ago
        I don't know, pretty sure the teenagers racing their cars on the road near my house at 3 in the morning aren't late to work.
      - aoeusnth1 6y ago
        I have millionaire asshole neighbors who drive their firraris at 50mph through my 15mph street. Their kids leave their litter on the street where they drink & do drugs. Not being an asshole does not take effort, it takes basic respect.
        Lammy 6y ago
        > it takes basic respect I totally agree! But I also try to give it if I hope to receive it since there is no One Society that doesn't also include the asshole millionaires :)
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
  If the fines were cheaper I think enumerable americans would opt for that. To save endless hours of court or pay like $250-500 for a default judgement? Hell you can get a simple signature loan at a credit union for that.
  - toast0 6y ago
    Sounds like traffic court?
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
      Pretty much. I mean is that so bad? Who cares that the rich can pay their way through it. That's normal. They have more money than time typically anyway. To me though, this just sounds like lower income types who are avoiding it. They also value their time but don't have money to "buy it back" so to speak. Essentially it'd be a tax on people committing crimes. Is that really such a ridiculous system as opposed to a criminal justice such as ours?
      - musingsole 6y ago
        I'm not opposed to your view, though it calls to mind that many with the money to pay fines don't look at those activities as bad/illegal/criminal, but simply taxed (as you say). I'd prefer we did away with the 'crime' aspect of it all and just say "you can park anywhere in the city you want -- designated or not -- for about $1000/hr, and after 10 hours or more, your car may be moved to a more secure location for storage at a service fee of another couple $1000". If we're supposed to be a capitalist society, I'd think we could be honest about it and just hang price tags on behavior communities don't want but that don't belong in any book detailing the punishments for various kinds of murder.
- vkou 6y ago
  That's a false dichotomy. There are more options than 'everyone is guilty' and 'there's an enormous legal machine grinding through low-level, non-violent offenders'. And, ah, most of the people showing up to those court summons aren't there to plead not guilty. They are there to say that they are really sorry, and to ask the judge to not punish them as much as he could.
LatteLazy 6y ago
That's fine, but you either need to do away with due process or legalise a lot of really shitty behavior to achieve that. That's why no one has done it yet.
- bastawhiz 6y ago
  I don't think you need to legalize anything. My dad got a parking ticket from NYC. He hasn't left Pennsylvania in 15 years. Someone typoed a plate number. He either had to pay $55, drive over 100 miles to appear in court, or not pay the fine and become a criminal. How many people are victims of another's incompetence? Or get points on their license because they drove five miles over the speed limit on the day a shitty cop was trying to make their quota? Or lost their license because they had points from that situation, but still needed to get to work? There are so many gotchas that, for the middle class, amount to very little. But for less fortunate folks, can ruin their lives. When you live paycheck to paycheck, the smallest infractions have a nasty habit of snowballing.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    Respectfully, you're example is just what I'm talking about. Your options are: * keep everything like it is now. * repeal all parking and speeding laws so you don't have to give these tickets, some of which will be given in error. Then just live in a world where there are vastly more traffic deaths and no one can drive in urban areas because people just park in the middle of the roads * do away with the court date and assume everyone is guilty. What should it be? No one likes shitty little fines but they have to be levied or you end up with worse results. Also, if you can't afford an unexpected 55 dollar expense, your really can't afford a car. Sorry if that's blunt, but seriously. If you can't afford 55 dollars, you need to radically change how you live not gripe over whatever the cause of the expense was. And I'm 100% of the opinion that this should all be refunded when you prove your innocent...
    - taejo 6y ago
      That's completely unreasonable. What if he'd been on the West Coast, or overseas? Anyone can be forced at any time to travel any distance to New York because of a typo? Plenty of other places allow traffic tickets to be challenged in writing. Why can't New York?

I wish instead to live in a society that doesn’t have low-level court appearances to incentivize.

by Lammy 6y ago

I wish instead to live in a society that doesn’t have low-level court appearances to incentivize.

> I wish instead to live in a society that doesn’t have low-level court appearances to incentivize. Abolish presumption of innocence for low-level offenses and jump straight to punishement and you do away with low-level court appearances to incentivize. I kinda like the status quo by comparison, but YMMV.

Lammy 6y ago
That's almost exactly the opposite of what I had in mind. I don't believe in "low-level offenses" as anything but tools to perpetuate inequality and would love to see the concept eliminated. Any offense benign enough to be considered "low-level" is not indicative of bad intention to me, because I assume any person choosing to do evil will go big or go home :)
- praxulus 6y ago
  What should we do about actions that aren't malicious, but are nevertheless harmful or put others at risk? Littering, mild traffic violations, etc.
  - Lammy 6y ago
    We should enrich everybody. All of those examples are symptoms of people short on time, which in our society is usually synonymous with short on money. I don't think many people would choose to drive recklessly while eating and tossing their trash out the window. That's something I'd expect from a person who has to be at work at EARLY:00 on-the-dot, maybe working multiple jobs, but generally just trying to survive another day.
    - bawolff 6y ago
      That sounds rediculous. Plenty of rich people are assholes too. If anything, i think the sterotype would be entitled rich (or at least not poor) people who think the rules don't apply to them are more likely to commit "low-level" offenses.
    - InitialLastName 6y ago
      I don't know, pretty sure the teenagers racing their cars on the road near my house at 3 in the morning aren't late to work.
    - aoeusnth1 6y ago
      I have millionaire asshole neighbors who drive their firraris at 50mph through my 15mph street. Their kids leave their litter on the street where they drink & do drugs. Not being an asshole does not take effort, it takes basic respect.
      - Lammy 6y ago
        > it takes basic respect I totally agree! But I also try to give it if I hope to receive it since there is no One Society that doesn't also include the asshole millionaires :)
MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
If the fines were cheaper I think enumerable americans would opt for that. To save endless hours of court or pay like $250-500 for a default judgement? Hell you can get a simple signature loan at a credit union for that.
- toast0 6y ago
  Sounds like traffic court?
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
    Pretty much. I mean is that so bad? Who cares that the rich can pay their way through it. That's normal. They have more money than time typically anyway. To me though, this just sounds like lower income types who are avoiding it. They also value their time but don't have money to "buy it back" so to speak. Essentially it'd be a tax on people committing crimes. Is that really such a ridiculous system as opposed to a criminal justice such as ours?
    - musingsole 6y ago
      I'm not opposed to your view, though it calls to mind that many with the money to pay fines don't look at those activities as bad/illegal/criminal, but simply taxed (as you say). I'd prefer we did away with the 'crime' aspect of it all and just say "you can park anywhere in the city you want -- designated or not -- for about $1000/hr, and after 10 hours or more, your car may be moved to a more secure location for storage at a service fee of another couple $1000". If we're supposed to be a capitalist society, I'd think we could be honest about it and just hang price tags on behavior communities don't want but that don't belong in any book detailing the punishments for various kinds of murder.
vkou 6y ago
That's a false dichotomy. There are more options than 'everyone is guilty' and 'there's an enormous legal machine grinding through low-level, non-violent offenders'. And, ah, most of the people showing up to those court summons aren't there to plead not guilty. They are there to say that they are really sorry, and to ask the judge to not punish them as much as he could.

LatteLazy 6y ago

That's fine, but you either need to do away with due process or legalise a lot of really shitty behavior to achieve that. That's why no one has done it yet.

bastawhiz 6y ago
I don't think you need to legalize anything. My dad got a parking ticket from NYC. He hasn't left Pennsylvania in 15 years. Someone typoed a plate number. He either had to pay $55, drive over 100 miles to appear in court, or not pay the fine and become a criminal. How many people are victims of another's incompetence? Or get points on their license because they drove five miles over the speed limit on the day a shitty cop was trying to make their quota? Or lost their license because they had points from that situation, but still needed to get to work? There are so many gotchas that, for the middle class, amount to very little. But for less fortunate folks, can ruin their lives. When you live paycheck to paycheck, the smallest infractions have a nasty habit of snowballing.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  Respectfully, you're example is just what I'm talking about. Your options are: * keep everything like it is now. * repeal all parking and speeding laws so you don't have to give these tickets, some of which will be given in error. Then just live in a world where there are vastly more traffic deaths and no one can drive in urban areas because people just park in the middle of the roads * do away with the court date and assume everyone is guilty. What should it be? No one likes shitty little fines but they have to be levied or you end up with worse results. Also, if you can't afford an unexpected 55 dollar expense, your really can't afford a car. Sorry if that's blunt, but seriously. If you can't afford 55 dollars, you need to radically change how you live not gripe over whatever the cause of the expense was. And I'm 100% of the opinion that this should all be refunded when you prove your innocent...
  - taejo 6y ago
    That's completely unreasonable. What if he'd been on the West Coast, or overseas? Anyone can be forced at any time to travel any distance to New York because of a typo? Plenty of other places allow traffic tickets to be challenged in writing. Why can't New York?