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I still don't see the point of Bitcoin beyond being a digital gold. And monero for anonymous purchases online. Every country is still gonna have their currenci

I still don't see the point of Bitcoin beyond being a digital gold. And monero for anonymous purchases online. Every country is still gonna have their currencies, and the most stable country is going to be used as the peg currency. Right now that's USD. So basically Bitcoin is a digital gold, but the underlying trust mechanism is inefficient. Thus it gets centralized at big nodes, like banks or exchanges. Thus it becomes basically a digital gold. You might as well have banks offer "Digital Gold, $1000 an ounce!"

ColanR 6y ago
Wasn't that how it was designed? Even the term 'miner' was based on gold mining. I think the only difference is that gold used to be the currency itself, not just what backed the currency, and BTC tried to be both.
phocion 6y ago
How is the underlying trust mechanism inefficient? You can run a fully validating Bitcoin node on an old laptop without any issues. Even a raspberry pi can handle it.
- throw51319 6y ago
  Yeah but isn't it like, as the number of transactions increase the computing power must increase? So if you had the world transacting on the blockchain ledger, it would take a crazy amount of computing power just to validate?
  - xur17 6y ago
    No, that's not how it works.
    - throw51319 6y ago
      So why do they have farms in china for bitcoin mining?
  - phocion 6y ago
    The computing power used for proof-of-work is not proportional to the number of transactions. Computationally, it's relatively cheap to verify the entire transaction history. The real energy consumption comes from miners who use a crazy amount of computer power to secure the network. Bitcoin's transaction history is immutable because changing it would require an even crazier amount of computing power - too much for any malicious actor who tries to attack the network. The amount of energy used is a feature, not a bug. There are no alternative designs known that could replace proof-of-work while keeping its security assurances, permissionless participation, fair distribution of coins, unforgeability, etc.
jerry1979 6y ago
> So basically Bitcoin is a digital gold The hate is getting less hatey each year. I think networks like lightning might centralization some, but as long users remain able to pay uncensorably Bitcoin still checks the ecash box.
- RandomBacon 6y ago
  > uncensorably Bitcoin Bitcoin can be censored. Do to it's transparent nature, miners can refuse to add transactions to blocks based on specific criteria such as sender, receiver, and transaction amount.
  - jerry1979 6y ago
    When miners start censoring payments for what I'll (for the sake of argument) call "non-engineering" reasons, then Bitcoin will no longer check the ecash box for me. Until then, it seems like self preservation combined with fungibility efforts prevent this kind of censorship.
biolurker1 6y ago
I don't see your point actually. Yes bitcoin is both digital gold but a type of gold that can be used also as currency which is not possible right now. Also its not centralized that's a myth. So?
- throw51319 6y ago
  How much bitcoin is traded peer to peer vs traded on huge exchanges like Coinbase, Robinhood, etc? Seems pretty centralized to me.
- itsdsmurrell 6y ago
  It's centralised at the repository level. There is only one main version of BTC that miners run. The devs have full control.
janoside 6y ago
As a tech enthusiast on a forum heavily populated by people interested in disrupting aspects of the world through technology, you are missing a big, big boat here. And I'm not even referring to the possible investment opportunity - rather just the opportunity to watch with open eyes as some of the foundational facets of human society are disrupted. I find the anti-BTC tone of the discussion here very disappointing but also very interesting (I can't figure it out except through intellectual arrogance). I offer the perspective: you hold a set of deeply held assumptions that are being actively questioned and poked at by this technology. The level of your reasoning is not up to the task of understanding what happens, even long after the disruption has happened. I recommend investing in education on this topic. A recent podcast episode worth listening to: https://www.whatbitcoindid.com/podcast/what-is-bitcoin https://www.whatbitcoindid.com/podcast/what-is-bitcoin
- rossjudson 6y ago
  The consequences of bitcoin have not been sufficiently questioned and poked at. Society allows the exchange of bitcoin for real currency. Bitcoin enthusiasts (at least until they are victimized) view the scams, crimes, and damage enabled by Bitcoin as externalized costs (borne by those who are "not up to the task of understanding", which is generally not something you should write immediately after complaining about "intellectual arrogance"). The cost of a Bitcoin speculator's "freedom" is paid by others. Real currency and banking systems actively try to prevent fraud and crime. Bitcoin is...whatever the exact opposite of that is. It exists only to be itself -- provably so.
  - janoside 6y ago
    You are clearly more confused, and entrenched in the status quo, than the comment I was originally responding to. I'm not sure why the "air quotes" around the word "freedom", but it reeks of mockery. And therein lies the philosophical divide that clearly separates us: free association and trade between free individuals is the moral ideal of any economic system (yes, also the freedom to speculate and to get scammed); by contrast a system of power management and control for the sake of "preventing fraud and crime" (by the way, you might want to do some research about the efficacy of prevention of the systemic tools you exalt) is a system of masters and slaves. Bitcoin is foundation for the clearest example of the former in existence, and its properties resist influences pushing toward the latter. https://medium.com/@breedlove22/masters-and-slaves-of-money-255ecc93404f https://medium.com/@breedlove22/masters-and-slaves-of-money-...

ColanR 6y ago

Wasn't that how it was designed? Even the term 'miner' was based on gold mining. I think the only difference is that gold used to be the currency itself, not just what backed the currency, and BTC tried to be both.

phocion 6y ago

How is the underlying trust mechanism inefficient? You can run a fully validating Bitcoin node on an old laptop without any issues. Even a raspberry pi can handle it.

throw51319 6y ago
Yeah but isn't it like, as the number of transactions increase the computing power must increase? So if you had the world transacting on the blockchain ledger, it would take a crazy amount of computing power just to validate?
- xur17 6y ago
  No, that's not how it works.
  - throw51319 6y ago
    So why do they have farms in china for bitcoin mining?
- phocion 6y ago
  The computing power used for proof-of-work is not proportional to the number of transactions. Computationally, it's relatively cheap to verify the entire transaction history. The real energy consumption comes from miners who use a crazy amount of computer power to secure the network. Bitcoin's transaction history is immutable because changing it would require an even crazier amount of computing power - too much for any malicious actor who tries to attack the network. The amount of energy used is a feature, not a bug. There are no alternative designs known that could replace proof-of-work while keeping its security assurances, permissionless participation, fair distribution of coins, unforgeability, etc.

jerry1979 6y ago

> So basically Bitcoin is a digital gold The hate is getting less hatey each year. I think networks like lightning might centralization some, but as long users remain able to pay uncensorably Bitcoin still checks the ecash box.

RandomBacon 6y ago
> uncensorably Bitcoin Bitcoin can be censored. Do to it's transparent nature, miners can refuse to add transactions to blocks based on specific criteria such as sender, receiver, and transaction amount.
- jerry1979 6y ago
  When miners start censoring payments for what I'll (for the sake of argument) call "non-engineering" reasons, then Bitcoin will no longer check the ecash box for me. Until then, it seems like self preservation combined with fungibility efforts prevent this kind of censorship.

biolurker1 6y ago

I don't see your point actually. Yes bitcoin is both digital gold but a type of gold that can be used also as currency which is not possible right now. Also its not centralized that's a myth. So?

throw51319 6y ago
How much bitcoin is traded peer to peer vs traded on huge exchanges like Coinbase, Robinhood, etc? Seems pretty centralized to me.
itsdsmurrell 6y ago
It's centralised at the repository level. There is only one main version of BTC that miners run. The devs have full control.

janoside 6y ago

As a tech enthusiast on a forum heavily populated by people interested in disrupting aspects of the world through technology, you are missing a big, big boat here. And I'm not even referring to the possible investment opportunity - rather just the opportunity to watch with open eyes as some of the foundational facets of human society are disrupted. I find the anti-BTC tone of the discussion here very disappointing but also very interesting (I can't figure it out except through intellectual arrogance). I offer the perspective: you hold a set of deeply held assumptions that are being actively questioned and poked at by this technology. The level of your reasoning is not up to the task of understanding what happens, even long after the disruption has happened. I recommend investing in education on this topic. A recent podcast episode worth listening to: https://www.whatbitcoindid.com/podcast/what-is-bitcoin https://www.whatbitcoindid.com/podcast/what-is-bitcoin

rossjudson 6y ago
The consequences of bitcoin have not been sufficiently questioned and poked at. Society allows the exchange of bitcoin for real currency. Bitcoin enthusiasts (at least until they are victimized) view the scams, crimes, and damage enabled by Bitcoin as externalized costs (borne by those who are "not up to the task of understanding", which is generally not something you should write immediately after complaining about "intellectual arrogance"). The cost of a Bitcoin speculator's "freedom" is paid by others. Real currency and banking systems actively try to prevent fraud and crime. Bitcoin is...whatever the exact opposite of that is. It exists only to be itself -- provably so.
- janoside 6y ago
  You are clearly more confused, and entrenched in the status quo, than the comment I was originally responding to. I'm not sure why the "air quotes" around the word "freedom", but it reeks of mockery. And therein lies the philosophical divide that clearly separates us: free association and trade between free individuals is the moral ideal of any economic system (yes, also the freedom to speculate and to get scammed); by contrast a system of power management and control for the sake of "preventing fraud and crime" (by the way, you might want to do some research about the efficacy of prevention of the systemic tools you exalt) is a system of masters and slaves. Bitcoin is foundation for the clearest example of the former in existence, and its properties resist influences pushing toward the latter. https://medium.com/@breedlove22/masters-and-slaves-of-money-255ecc93404f https://medium.com/@breedlove22/masters-and-slaves-of-money-...