5 ms·

I don't know where you get your distorted view of what police and the justice system do. But they barely have enough resources to address the major crimes that

I don't know where you get your distorted view of what police and the justice system do. But they barely have enough resources to address the major crimes that happen. Almost everyone who gets called to court has been legitimately ticketed or cited for doing something. Belief that people are being unfairly targeted or cited is putting some serious blinders on to reality.

avs733 6y ago
>Almost everyone who gets called to court has been legitimately ticketed or cited for doing something you have some evidence to support this? It is oddly authoritarian for HN...
- SamReidHughes 6y ago
  It is plainly true, and if you have any dispute about this, you really need to get off the computer, go outside, and get a grounding in reality.
  - alexilliamson 6y ago
    If it's plainly true it shouldn't be hard to produce a citation.
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
      Go outside. I can assure you you'll be able to learn about reality without needing any citations.
      - mftrhu 6y ago
        Ah, yes. An accelerated It Stands To Reason 101 course from the School Of Hard Knocks.
      - dTal 6y ago
        If your source is your own personal experience, you should show a little more humility about that fact, instead of attributing ignorance to anyone who disagrees with you.
      - Thorncorona 6y ago
        If everyone is arrested for a valid reason then that implies nobody is arrested for an invalid reason. Good thing The Marshall Project keeps a list of news articles about people being falsely imprisoned :) https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/507-wrongful-imprisonment https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/507-wrongful-impr...
  - AlexandrB 6y ago
    So you're saying that these citations have a 100% conviction rate? If some people are found not guilty, are you saying the citations still "legitimate" somehow? By what standard of evidence?
    - avs733 6y ago
      the suburban fear mongering standard. See also: debates over expanding rapid transit in most large US cities.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    The dispute here is over the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Your insistence that everybody who agrees with this core tenet of justice should "go outside" is doing nothing to support your argument. Besides, we've got smartphones and can continue the conversation out there.
  - avs733 6y ago
    I mean...personally I've been detained a number of times for doing perfectly legal things. I've beaten speeding tickets, I was the victim of an assault where despite video evidence I was given a citation for disorderly conduct. The US has executed innocent people, recently. It isn't even about 'innocent until proven guilty'...the idea that someone on trial must be guilty of something is incredibly common and deeply problematic for our society, not just our system of justice. It presumes that policing is not just always accurate but automatically accurate. It is propaganda used to marginalize certain communities in a very intentional way. That idea is so incorrect that it is disqualifying from participating in this conversation further.
  - lazyasciiart 6y ago
    It is 100% false. I can't produce a citation because I know this from doing data analysis for a private organization with data I don't have rights to, but tracking people given average-to-low bails in Seattle showed that over 50% of them had all charges dismissed if they were bailed out (if not bailed out, about 90% of them just pleaded guilty). One particularly egregious case had video evidence showing that the homeless man charged with assaulting a cop had actually been randomly assaulted by the cop without any interaction in the leadup. 'Going outside' isn't going to teach you anything about the reality of people being routinely arrested for the convenience of others, but listening to other people who are familiar with reality might.
alistairSH 6y ago
You're contradicting yourself. Tickets and citations (usually issued for lower grade misdemeanors, things like drunk in public, loitering, reckless driving) are hardly "major crimes".
ska 6y ago
> Almost everyone who gets called to court has been legitimately ticketed or cited for doing something. Most people do something most days that could be legitimately ticketed or cited, if only a misdemeanor. The more interesting question is (at least statistically speaking) who actually gets them and why.
- SamReidHughes 6y ago
  I'm sorry but this is complete nonsense. I haven't committed any misdemeanors in the past year. What misdemeanors did you commit yesterday? Maybe you're a one man crime spree, most people are not.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Pretty much every non-criminal civil infraction has a misdemeanor counterpart that the cops can use at their discretion. Driving traffic speed on a highway is usually a misdemeanor unless you live somewhere with reality-based speed limits.
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
      It's telling the example you give is not actually a misdemeanor. Speeding is not the same thing as reckless driving. Try giving an actual misdemeanor as an example.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        Speeding 15-20 over (the last time traffic where I live didn't do that was the last rush hour before the lockdown) is a civil violation or misdemeanor at the discretion of the officer. In my jurisdiction smoking within a certain distance of certain government facilities (including the nondescript leased office that the registrar of deeds for my county is in, if the sign is to be beloved) is a misdemeanor (punishable by like a $50 fine or up to one night in jail IIRC). I know for a fact that not getting certain kinds of municipal permits can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor around here and pretty much nobody gets permits for anything if the property is their primary residence (and the inspectors don't care).
ch4s3 6y ago
To echo what other people have said, police in the city spend the vast majority of their time doing things totally unrelated to major crimes. In fact many officers never deal with major crimes, or only do so a few times in their career. To address the point at hand, if we're going to summon people to court it makes sense to communicate the information reliably. Additionally, I would love for policing to be primarily focused on serious crimes and not minor nuisance crimes, of which the city and state codify a mind boggling number.
HarryHirsch 6y ago
legitimately ticketed or cited for doing something It starts with the word "legitimately". There's a good number of towns in North Florida under consent decree for financing themselves via tickets from motorists that are passing through. The towns set up speed limits on major roads that had nothing to do with road safety and everything with fleecing travelers. You'd also think that the local cops would try very hard not to stop anyone who looks as if they might attract the Fed's attention. That leaves the poor and indigent - business as usual. Also in today's news: the DOJ reached a settlement with Purdue Pharma. Yes, totally legitimate, all within the confines of the law.
AlexandrB 6y ago
This flies in the face of 30 years of "the war on drugs" that put people in jail for infractions like possession of marijuana. Meanwhile, the police don't seem to give a shit about major crimes anymore[1]. [1] https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2018/feb/16/us-murder-clearance-rates-among-lowest-world/ https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2018/feb/16/us-murder...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
paultopia 6y ago
While I understand why someone might think like this, the evidence, unfortunately, is that some jurisdictions use court as a revenue source. The most famous example is Ferguson, MO, because of the death there of Michael Brown. There, the city so aggressively enforced BS ordinances that there was an average of 3 warrants per household[1]. But there are other examples as well, and penny-ante enforcement may actually undermine serious crime prevention.[2] [1] https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/ferguson-and-the-debtors-prison.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/fe... --- this blog post also gives an example of one of the more troubling barriers to court appearance: judges who close their courtrooms to non-defendants, meaning defendants without child care can't appear. [2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1078087418791775?journalCode=uarb https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/107808741879177... --- ungated version: https://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/upload_documents/YOU_policing.pdf https://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/upload_documents...
ch4s3 6y ago
NYC summons are mostly for petty nuisance crime[1]. Check the open data and you'll see that the largest category by a whole order of magnitude is for § 10-125 violations, consumption of alcohol on the streets where prohibited[2]. I would argue that public consumption shouldn't be a crime, and enforcing it detracts from enforcing real crime. It also further criminalizes poverty. [1] https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public-Safety/NYPD-Criminal-Court-Summons-Historic-/sv2w-rv3k https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public-Safety/NYPD-Criminal-Co... [2] https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2006/new-york-city-administrative-code-new/adc010-125_10-125.html https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2006/new-york-city-adm...

avs733 6y ago

>Almost everyone who gets called to court has been legitimately ticketed or cited for doing something you have some evidence to support this? It is oddly authoritarian for HN...

SamReidHughes 6y ago
It is plainly true, and if you have any dispute about this, you really need to get off the computer, go outside, and get a grounding in reality.
- alexilliamson 6y ago
  If it's plainly true it shouldn't be hard to produce a citation.
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    Go outside. I can assure you you'll be able to learn about reality without needing any citations.
    - mftrhu 6y ago
      Ah, yes. An accelerated It Stands To Reason 101 course from the School Of Hard Knocks.
    - dTal 6y ago
      If your source is your own personal experience, you should show a little more humility about that fact, instead of attributing ignorance to anyone who disagrees with you.
    - Thorncorona 6y ago
      If everyone is arrested for a valid reason then that implies nobody is arrested for an invalid reason. Good thing The Marshall Project keeps a list of news articles about people being falsely imprisoned :) https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/507-wrongful-imprisonment https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/507-wrongful-impr...
- AlexandrB 6y ago
  So you're saying that these citations have a 100% conviction rate? If some people are found not guilty, are you saying the citations still "legitimate" somehow? By what standard of evidence?
  - avs733 6y ago
    the suburban fear mongering standard. See also: debates over expanding rapid transit in most large US cities.
- klyrs 6y ago
  The dispute here is over the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Your insistence that everybody who agrees with this core tenet of justice should "go outside" is doing nothing to support your argument. Besides, we've got smartphones and can continue the conversation out there.
- avs733 6y ago
  I mean...personally I've been detained a number of times for doing perfectly legal things. I've beaten speeding tickets, I was the victim of an assault where despite video evidence I was given a citation for disorderly conduct. The US has executed innocent people, recently. It isn't even about 'innocent until proven guilty'...the idea that someone on trial must be guilty of something is incredibly common and deeply problematic for our society, not just our system of justice. It presumes that policing is not just always accurate but automatically accurate. It is propaganda used to marginalize certain communities in a very intentional way. That idea is so incorrect that it is disqualifying from participating in this conversation further.
- lazyasciiart 6y ago
  It is 100% false. I can't produce a citation because I know this from doing data analysis for a private organization with data I don't have rights to, but tracking people given average-to-low bails in Seattle showed that over 50% of them had all charges dismissed if they were bailed out (if not bailed out, about 90% of them just pleaded guilty). One particularly egregious case had video evidence showing that the homeless man charged with assaulting a cop had actually been randomly assaulted by the cop without any interaction in the leadup. 'Going outside' isn't going to teach you anything about the reality of people being routinely arrested for the convenience of others, but listening to other people who are familiar with reality might.

alistairSH 6y ago

You're contradicting yourself. Tickets and citations (usually issued for lower grade misdemeanors, things like drunk in public, loitering, reckless driving) are hardly "major crimes".

ska 6y ago

> Almost everyone who gets called to court has been legitimately ticketed or cited for doing something. Most people do something most days that could be legitimately ticketed or cited, if only a misdemeanor. The more interesting question is (at least statistically speaking) who actually gets them and why.

SamReidHughes 6y ago
I'm sorry but this is complete nonsense. I haven't committed any misdemeanors in the past year. What misdemeanors did you commit yesterday? Maybe you're a one man crime spree, most people are not.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Pretty much every non-criminal civil infraction has a misdemeanor counterpart that the cops can use at their discretion. Driving traffic speed on a highway is usually a misdemeanor unless you live somewhere with reality-based speed limits.
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    It's telling the example you give is not actually a misdemeanor. Speeding is not the same thing as reckless driving. Try giving an actual misdemeanor as an example.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Speeding 15-20 over (the last time traffic where I live didn't do that was the last rush hour before the lockdown) is a civil violation or misdemeanor at the discretion of the officer. In my jurisdiction smoking within a certain distance of certain government facilities (including the nondescript leased office that the registrar of deeds for my county is in, if the sign is to be beloved) is a misdemeanor (punishable by like a $50 fine or up to one night in jail IIRC). I know for a fact that not getting certain kinds of municipal permits can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor around here and pretty much nobody gets permits for anything if the property is their primary residence (and the inspectors don't care).

ch4s3 6y ago

To echo what other people have said, police in the city spend the vast majority of their time doing things totally unrelated to major crimes. In fact many officers never deal with major crimes, or only do so a few times in their career. To address the point at hand, if we're going to summon people to court it makes sense to communicate the information reliably. Additionally, I would love for policing to be primarily focused on serious crimes and not minor nuisance crimes, of which the city and state codify a mind boggling number.

HarryHirsch 6y ago

legitimately ticketed or cited for doing something It starts with the word "legitimately". There's a good number of towns in North Florida under consent decree for financing themselves via tickets from motorists that are passing through. The towns set up speed limits on major roads that had nothing to do with road safety and everything with fleecing travelers. You'd also think that the local cops would try very hard not to stop anyone who looks as if they might attract the Fed's attention. That leaves the poor and indigent - business as usual. Also in today's news: the DOJ reached a settlement with Purdue Pharma. Yes, totally legitimate, all within the confines of the law.

AlexandrB 6y ago

This flies in the face of 30 years of "the war on drugs" that put people in jail for infractions like possession of marijuana. Meanwhile, the police don't seem to give a shit about major crimes anymore[1]. [1] https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2018/feb/16/us-murder-clearance-rates-among-lowest-world/ https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2018/feb/16/us-murder...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

paultopia 6y ago

While I understand why someone might think like this, the evidence, unfortunately, is that some jurisdictions use court as a revenue source. The most famous example is Ferguson, MO, because of the death there of Michael Brown. There, the city so aggressively enforced BS ordinances that there was an average of 3 warrants per household[1]. But there are other examples as well, and penny-ante enforcement may actually undermine serious crime prevention.[2] [1] https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/ferguson-and-the-debtors-prison.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/fe... --- this blog post also gives an example of one of the more troubling barriers to court appearance: judges who close their courtrooms to non-defendants, meaning defendants without child care can't appear. [2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1078087418791775?journalCode=uarb https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/107808741879177... --- ungated version: https://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/upload_documents/YOU_policing.pdf https://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/upload_documents...

ch4s3 6y ago

NYC summons are mostly for petty nuisance crime[1]. Check the open data and you'll see that the largest category by a whole order of magnitude is for § 10-125 violations, consumption of alcohol on the streets where prohibited[2]. I would argue that public consumption shouldn't be a crime, and enforcing it detracts from enforcing real crime. It also further criminalizes poverty. [1] https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public-Safety/NYPD-Criminal-Court-Summons-Historic-/sv2w-rv3k https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public-Safety/NYPD-Criminal-Co... [2] https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2006/new-york-city-administrative-code-new/adc010-125_10-125.html https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2006/new-york-city-adm...