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Important distinction: civil unions and not marriage "in God's eyes". "In the 2013 book “On Heaven and Earth,” Pope Francis did not reject the possibility of c

Important distinction: civil unions and not marriage "in God's eyes". "In the 2013 book “On Heaven and Earth,” Pope Francis did not reject the possibility of civil unions outright, but did say that laws “assimilating” homosexual relationships to marriage are “an anthropological regression,” and he expressed concern that if same-sex couples “are given adoption rights, there could be affected children. Every person needs a male father and a female mother that can help them shape their identity.”" https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-calls-for-civil-union-law-for-same-sex-couples-in-shift-from-vatican-stance-12462 https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-calls-f... Still a good step forward, but far from where we should aim to be.

klyrs 6y ago
Another important distinction: this is Francis voicing his opinion in a documentary, and not an official communiqué such as an apostolic constitution The timing is interesting, though. Barrett's faith has been under intense scrutiny through the confirmation process. If the Catholic church moves on this issue, will she lose the support of evangelical voters?
- desertrider12 6y ago
  Evangelicals are Protestant so they don't really care about Roman Catholic doctrine. Even though they agree on many issues it doesn't mean the Pope would change their minds.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    I think you misread me. Barrett is Catholic, and has strong support from Evangelicals at this point: until now the religions are aligned on gay marriage and abortion. If they perceive a shift in how she is expected to rule on cases, will their support falter?
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Barrett is Catholic, and has strong support from Evangelicals at this point: until now the religions are aligned on gay marriage and abortion. The activist politically conservative segment of the Catholic faithful tends to be in line with the political right and out of line with the Church heirarchy on a number of policy issues (just different issues than the activist left within the Church is, naturally), the heirarchy moving in a leftward direction on an issue where they were previously in line just adds one issue to that list, it doesn't move the position of conservative Catholic activists like Barret. Not in the short-term, and probably not much in the long term, except insofar as it increases the likelihood of such activists separating from the Church altogether (though, of course, from the PoV of such activists it will be the earthly heirarchy separating itself from the genuine Church), and thus no longer being regarded as Catholic conservatives.
- Raphmedia 6y ago
  > Another important distinction: this is Francis voicing his opinion in a documentary, and not an official communiqué such as an apostolic constitution Exactly. This pope has said many controversial things. For example this: https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2020/04/pope-francis-censored-for-calling-scotch-whisky-the-real-holy-water/ https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2020/04/pope-francis-censo...
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Another important distinction: this is Francis voicing his opinion in a documentary, and not an official communiqué such as an apostolic constitution Apostolic constitutions are legislation, not communiqués. And (outside of the State of Vatican City), the papal legislative authority doesn't extend to the content of civil law, which is the subject matter here. An exhortation on a matter like civil law which is prudential on its face but on which the moral teaching of the Church has important impacts would probably be addressed, in a more formal context, in a papal encyclical or apostolic exhortation. EDIT [1] here's a very different perspective on its significance: https://twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1318970487242956801 https://twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1318970487242956801 EDIT [2] to merge a separate response: > If the Catholic church moves on this issue, will she lose the support of evangelical voters? While the politically activist Christian Right has made tactical alliance with conservative Catholics on many issues, anti-Catholicism is historically very strong among American evangelicals and fundamentalists, so, and neither politically liberal nor politically conservative Catholics in the electorate seem to move, and certainly not rapidly if they do at all, in response to policy shifts by the Church heirarchy, so I expect to have very little impact on the Barret confirmation, either the Senate process or public support one way or another for it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pmdulaney 6y ago
  As a conservative Evangelical myself (and former Catholic) I didn't find Francis's announcement shocking, nor did I disagree with it. I am strongly opposed to gay marriage, but not allowing gay civil unions is hard to justify. Can we really argue that because we are Christians we should get tax breaks and other legal privileges that certain (that is, homosexual) unbelievers are not entitled to?

klyrs 6y ago

Another important distinction: this is Francis voicing his opinion in a documentary, and not an official communiqué such as an apostolic constitution The timing is interesting, though. Barrett's faith has been under intense scrutiny through the confirmation process. If the Catholic church moves on this issue, will she lose the support of evangelical voters?

desertrider12 6y ago
Evangelicals are Protestant so they don't really care about Roman Catholic doctrine. Even though they agree on many issues it doesn't mean the Pope would change their minds.
- klyrs 6y ago
  I think you misread me. Barrett is Catholic, and has strong support from Evangelicals at this point: until now the religions are aligned on gay marriage and abortion. If they perceive a shift in how she is expected to rule on cases, will their support falter?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Barrett is Catholic, and has strong support from Evangelicals at this point: until now the religions are aligned on gay marriage and abortion. The activist politically conservative segment of the Catholic faithful tends to be in line with the political right and out of line with the Church heirarchy on a number of policy issues (just different issues than the activist left within the Church is, naturally), the heirarchy moving in a leftward direction on an issue where they were previously in line just adds one issue to that list, it doesn't move the position of conservative Catholic activists like Barret. Not in the short-term, and probably not much in the long term, except insofar as it increases the likelihood of such activists separating from the Church altogether (though, of course, from the PoV of such activists it will be the earthly heirarchy separating itself from the genuine Church), and thus no longer being regarded as Catholic conservatives.
Raphmedia 6y ago
> Another important distinction: this is Francis voicing his opinion in a documentary, and not an official communiqué such as an apostolic constitution Exactly. This pope has said many controversial things. For example this: https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2020/04/pope-francis-censored-for-calling-scotch-whisky-the-real-holy-water/ https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2020/04/pope-francis-censo...
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Another important distinction: this is Francis voicing his opinion in a documentary, and not an official communiqué such as an apostolic constitution Apostolic constitutions are legislation, not communiqués. And (outside of the State of Vatican City), the papal legislative authority doesn't extend to the content of civil law, which is the subject matter here. An exhortation on a matter like civil law which is prudential on its face but on which the moral teaching of the Church has important impacts would probably be addressed, in a more formal context, in a papal encyclical or apostolic exhortation. EDIT [1] here's a very different perspective on its significance: https://twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1318970487242956801 https://twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1318970487242956801 EDIT [2] to merge a separate response: > If the Catholic church moves on this issue, will she lose the support of evangelical voters? While the politically activist Christian Right has made tactical alliance with conservative Catholics on many issues, anti-Catholicism is historically very strong among American evangelicals and fundamentalists, so, and neither politically liberal nor politically conservative Catholics in the electorate seem to move, and certainly not rapidly if they do at all, in response to policy shifts by the Church heirarchy, so I expect to have very little impact on the Barret confirmation, either the Senate process or public support one way or another for it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pmdulaney 6y ago
As a conservative Evangelical myself (and former Catholic) I didn't find Francis's announcement shocking, nor did I disagree with it. I am strongly opposed to gay marriage, but not allowing gay civil unions is hard to justify. Can we really argue that because we are Christians we should get tax breaks and other legal privileges that certain (that is, homosexual) unbelievers are not entitled to?