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For me this is bitter-sweet as I've watched Paypal for years try kill any blockchain startup that had anything to do with using their shitty payment processor.

For me this is bitter-sweet as I've watched Paypal for years try kill any blockchain startup that had anything to do with using their shitty payment processor. "Absolutely NO cryptocurrencies! Unless of course it's us monopolizing it! Then it's okay!" Facebook pulled the same shit banning crypto ads and then shilling their crapcoin. Samsung did it by stalling anyone working on blockchain tech designed to run on their devices until they could offer their own solution. Google is doing the same with search ads until it can shill their centralized cloud solutions as a scalability option and whatever other evil shit they have in the pipeline. These companies are the anti-thesis to the blockchain. Paypal's crappiness is probably a leading reason 'Satoshi' invented Bitcoin.

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
Well said. But I don’t understand: > until Google can shill their centralized cloud solutions as a scalability option and whatever other evil shit they have in the pipeline How does this relate to search ads?
vbo 6y ago
While I agree big tech is the antithesis of the blockchain "spirit", I doubt they chose to block would-be competitors in anticipation of their own offering. The feeling I get is that everyone is/was tiptoeing around the whole matter due to compliance worries, until there was enough regulatory confidence to make a move. There's also the matter of how exactly Paypal is going to deal in crypto: the Revolut (and others?) model where you own only whatever crypto you buy on their platform, or the real deal where you can also deposit/withdraw cryptocurrencies. Either way, it's a step that highlights regulatory progress being made. It may not be the blockchain spirit, but alas that may not be what ultimately prevails.
knowuh 6y ago
Upvoting because of spicy sailor talk.
kebman 6y ago
It's bad when your bank prevents you from doing business because of conflict of interest.
- Domenic_S 6y ago
  It isn't a conflict of interest, it's risk mitigation. Banks and payment processors constantly analyze which categories spawn the most fraud and at a tipping point they ban the category completely. This is why it's incredibly hard to fund an online casino account with a credit -- or even a debit -- card without using some shady 3rd party go-between. This bit me with Coinbase 7-8 years ago when I was trying to buy $10k of bitcoin -- they'd only allow bank transfers, and only $100 at a time until you were "established". I gave up (and lost a lot of profit because of it). The quasi-anonymous nature of crypto means that fraud is rampant. For better or worse payment processors and banks have decided they'll make more money banning crypto unless the whole transaction is within their ecosystem. It's not great but I get it.
  - BMSmnqXAE4yfe1 6y ago
    Online casinos are banned because they are illegal (in some jurisdictions), not because of the fraud. Just no need to defraud anyone when your profits are that good. (as a former online casino owner).
    - Domenic_S 6y ago
      The card declines started back in the Before Times, before they were outlawed, pre-black friday. The fraud I mean is people funding their accounts, losing, then charging back.
- nullc 6y ago
  Back when paypal didn't prohibit trades for Bitcoin there was a ton of fraud done that way. There doesn't have to be just one reason, however.
csomar 6y ago
This is coming a bit too strong... I was there from the beginning. PayPal and Credit Cards did not ban bitcoin in the early days, but the high charge-back rate forced them to do it.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > PayPal and Credit Cards did not ban bitcoin in the early days, but the high charge-back rate forced them to do it. Were you? Then you must have simply forgotten how Ebay UK (which deals with Paypal) allowed for Bitcoin sales only through the ads, outside of the Paypal-sphere [0]. At the time this was pretty signinficant because this was when several Uk based bitcoin exchanges were being shut down. Bittyliciious being the biggest. And Localbitcoins started to become a target by regulators and gox was on its last legs. Also worth noting how you could bypass this with the sale of Bitcoin 'software' on their platform: > Ebay previously allowed users to sell software for bitcoin mining and transactions. 0: https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ebay-uk-allow-users-buy-sell-bitcoins-1433007 https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ebay-uk-allow-users-buy-sell-bitco...
timothy-quinn 6y ago
Thanks to this I've found building a product in the cryptocurrency market has been the most challenging for applying typical online marketing strategies - I've exhausted most avenues of advertisement - basically the only tools left are the more expensive sponsorship arrangements as every advertising platform will instantly reject your content. I can appreciate why the pendulum swung hard against ads - it's incredibly hard to differentiate between real and fake ICOs, and we're seeing that again with the defi craze at the moment. It's just made it so much more expensive as an emerging company to try to sell services in this market even when you _aren't_ trying to sell a coin.
- seibelj 6y ago
  Having a coin is a marketing strategy - people get in early because they have the most to gain, and then they spread the word to all of their friends to use the service, and it grows from there. Plus early adopters are extremely crypto-focused and have different groups and contacts who would be your ideal customers. The coin is the marketing - it's as if a tiny SaaS made it super simple to sell equity to their first customers, even in tiny increments.
  - NationalPark 6y ago
    Do speculators make good product advocates? Seems like they have a pretty obvious conflict of interest.
    - seibelj 6y ago
      They shill your product endlessly. What's the conflict of interest? They market for you, as they have a vested financial reason to do so. I mean it's no more a conflict than anyone else promoting their investment.
      - rodonn 6y ago
        The US financial system does not allow or encourage people who "shill" for investments. We in fact have many protections and policies that limit your ability to solicit investment in unregistered securities, which is what virtually all ICOs are/were.
nangz 6y ago
PayPal couldn't act as an on-ramp for anything crypto because PayPal is run on soft money (reversible credit card transactions or potentially hacked bank accounts). Allowing conversion of soft money to hard money (a btc with 6 onchain confirmations) means every criminal will use you as an on-ramp to convert their hack cc details and bank accounts into immutable hard money.
- fortran77 6y ago
  This was my feeling, too. It wasn't a Big Conspiracy to suppress Bitcoin. It was an effort to stop transactions that had a high percentage of fraud issues. Same thing with Facebook and crypto ads. There were just too many pyramid schemes and get-rich-schemes with a cryptocurrency angle that were being advertised.
  - rebuilder 6y ago
    Back in the day, it wasn't that PayPal didn't let people buy crypto, it was that you were mad to sell for PayPal credits. The system favoured the buyer so much it was just too risky. So I'm not really sure this policy matters - if nothing else has changed, selling crypto for PayPal creds is just asking to be scammed.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  Indeed don't attribute to corporate malice what is in reality government regulation. The cherry on top is that the regulations are often pushed by corporate industry players to push out other possible players.
- andrewla 6y ago
  Why not? They're not a party to the transaction; it is the vendor selling cryptocurrency that is taking on the risk. Paypal can reverse the transaction and the vendor has to eat the risk, same as for any PayPal transaction. If I buy a sweater from some company through PayPal, and the company sends me the sweater, they're out the sweater if they get a chargeback. They can fight it, but PayPal is just the middleman. Cryptocurrency vendors would have to figure out a policy to deal with it, so it might be that nobody would be willing to sell crypto for PayPal, but there's no reason for PayPal to block it.
arcticbull 6y ago
> Paypal's crappiness is probably a leading reason 'Satoshi' invented Bitcoin. The leading candidate for Satoshi is international murdering drug- and arms-dealing, racist, real-life Bond-villain Paul "Solotshi" Calder Le Roux. He of course created E4M and Truecrypt. [1,2] And he likely did so to avoid money laundering rules. And hey he just told a judge he was looking to get into the Bitcoin business! “The scope and severity of Mr. Le Roux’s criminal conduct is nothing short of breathtaking. I have before me a man who has engaged in conduct in keeping with the villain in a James Bond movie,” Judge Abrahms said. "I plan to start a business selling and hosting bitcoin miners." [3] You love to see it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Le_Roux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Le_Roux [2] https://www.wired.com/story/was-bitcoin-created-by-this-international-drug-dealer-maybe/ https://www.wired.com/story/was-bitcoin-created-by-this-inte... [3] https://news.bitcoin.com/satoshi-nakamoto-paul-le-roux-start-bitcoin-mining-business/ https://news.bitcoin.com/satoshi-nakamoto-paul-le-roux-start...
deleted 6y ago
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cryptica 6y ago
For Paypal, this is just inflation protection for their customers. Inflation is going to be much higher going forward so this feature is more important now. It's for people who leave a bunch of money sitting idle in their Paypal accounts for several months and don't want it to lose buying power. Paypal can achieve this by holding onto Bitcoin reserves to back their customers' funds. What this means is that Bitcoin is going to become the new gold standard. This will allow Paypal to take the place of traditional banks and help society to transition away from fractional reserve banking backed by fiat currency. It is very clever and brave of Paypal to do this.

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago

Well said. But I don’t understand: > until Google can shill their centralized cloud solutions as a scalability option and whatever other evil shit they have in the pipeline How does this relate to search ads?

vbo 6y ago

While I agree big tech is the antithesis of the blockchain "spirit", I doubt they chose to block would-be competitors in anticipation of their own offering. The feeling I get is that everyone is/was tiptoeing around the whole matter due to compliance worries, until there was enough regulatory confidence to make a move. There's also the matter of how exactly Paypal is going to deal in crypto: the Revolut (and others?) model where you own only whatever crypto you buy on their platform, or the real deal where you can also deposit/withdraw cryptocurrencies. Either way, it's a step that highlights regulatory progress being made. It may not be the blockchain spirit, but alas that may not be what ultimately prevails.

knowuh 6y ago

Upvoting because of spicy sailor talk.

kebman 6y ago

It's bad when your bank prevents you from doing business because of conflict of interest.

Domenic_S 6y ago
It isn't a conflict of interest, it's risk mitigation. Banks and payment processors constantly analyze which categories spawn the most fraud and at a tipping point they ban the category completely. This is why it's incredibly hard to fund an online casino account with a credit -- or even a debit -- card without using some shady 3rd party go-between. This bit me with Coinbase 7-8 years ago when I was trying to buy $10k of bitcoin -- they'd only allow bank transfers, and only $100 at a time until you were "established". I gave up (and lost a lot of profit because of it). The quasi-anonymous nature of crypto means that fraud is rampant. For better or worse payment processors and banks have decided they'll make more money banning crypto unless the whole transaction is within their ecosystem. It's not great but I get it.
- BMSmnqXAE4yfe1 6y ago
  Online casinos are banned because they are illegal (in some jurisdictions), not because of the fraud. Just no need to defraud anyone when your profits are that good. (as a former online casino owner).
  - Domenic_S 6y ago
    The card declines started back in the Before Times, before they were outlawed, pre-black friday. The fraud I mean is people funding their accounts, losing, then charging back.
nullc 6y ago
Back when paypal didn't prohibit trades for Bitcoin there was a ton of fraud done that way. There doesn't have to be just one reason, however.

csomar 6y ago

This is coming a bit too strong... I was there from the beginning. PayPal and Credit Cards did not ban bitcoin in the early days, but the high charge-back rate forced them to do it.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> PayPal and Credit Cards did not ban bitcoin in the early days, but the high charge-back rate forced them to do it. Were you? Then you must have simply forgotten how Ebay UK (which deals with Paypal) allowed for Bitcoin sales only through the ads, outside of the Paypal-sphere [0]. At the time this was pretty signinficant because this was when several Uk based bitcoin exchanges were being shut down. Bittyliciious being the biggest. And Localbitcoins started to become a target by regulators and gox was on its last legs. Also worth noting how you could bypass this with the sale of Bitcoin 'software' on their platform: > Ebay previously allowed users to sell software for bitcoin mining and transactions. 0: https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ebay-uk-allow-users-buy-sell-bitcoins-1433007 https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ebay-uk-allow-users-buy-sell-bitco...

timothy-quinn 6y ago

Thanks to this I've found building a product in the cryptocurrency market has been the most challenging for applying typical online marketing strategies - I've exhausted most avenues of advertisement - basically the only tools left are the more expensive sponsorship arrangements as every advertising platform will instantly reject your content. I can appreciate why the pendulum swung hard against ads - it's incredibly hard to differentiate between real and fake ICOs, and we're seeing that again with the defi craze at the moment. It's just made it so much more expensive as an emerging company to try to sell services in this market even when you _aren't_ trying to sell a coin.

seibelj 6y ago
Having a coin is a marketing strategy - people get in early because they have the most to gain, and then they spread the word to all of their friends to use the service, and it grows from there. Plus early adopters are extremely crypto-focused and have different groups and contacts who would be your ideal customers. The coin is the marketing - it's as if a tiny SaaS made it super simple to sell equity to their first customers, even in tiny increments.
- NationalPark 6y ago
  Do speculators make good product advocates? Seems like they have a pretty obvious conflict of interest.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    They shill your product endlessly. What's the conflict of interest? They market for you, as they have a vested financial reason to do so. I mean it's no more a conflict than anyone else promoting their investment.
    - rodonn 6y ago
      The US financial system does not allow or encourage people who "shill" for investments. We in fact have many protections and policies that limit your ability to solicit investment in unregistered securities, which is what virtually all ICOs are/were.

nangz 6y ago

PayPal couldn't act as an on-ramp for anything crypto because PayPal is run on soft money (reversible credit card transactions or potentially hacked bank accounts). Allowing conversion of soft money to hard money (a btc with 6 onchain confirmations) means every criminal will use you as an on-ramp to convert their hack cc details and bank accounts into immutable hard money.

fortran77 6y ago
This was my feeling, too. It wasn't a Big Conspiracy to suppress Bitcoin. It was an effort to stop transactions that had a high percentage of fraud issues. Same thing with Facebook and crypto ads. There were just too many pyramid schemes and get-rich-schemes with a cryptocurrency angle that were being advertised.
- rebuilder 6y ago
  Back in the day, it wasn't that PayPal didn't let people buy crypto, it was that you were mad to sell for PayPal credits. The system favoured the buyer so much it was just too risky. So I'm not really sure this policy matters - if nothing else has changed, selling crypto for PayPal creds is just asking to be scammed.
macinjosh 6y ago
Indeed don't attribute to corporate malice what is in reality government regulation. The cherry on top is that the regulations are often pushed by corporate industry players to push out other possible players.
andrewla 6y ago
Why not? They're not a party to the transaction; it is the vendor selling cryptocurrency that is taking on the risk. Paypal can reverse the transaction and the vendor has to eat the risk, same as for any PayPal transaction. If I buy a sweater from some company through PayPal, and the company sends me the sweater, they're out the sweater if they get a chargeback. They can fight it, but PayPal is just the middleman. Cryptocurrency vendors would have to figure out a policy to deal with it, so it might be that nobody would be willing to sell crypto for PayPal, but there's no reason for PayPal to block it.

arcticbull 6y ago

> Paypal's crappiness is probably a leading reason 'Satoshi' invented Bitcoin. The leading candidate for Satoshi is international murdering drug- and arms-dealing, racist, real-life Bond-villain Paul "Solotshi" Calder Le Roux. He of course created E4M and Truecrypt. [1,2] And he likely did so to avoid money laundering rules. And hey he just told a judge he was looking to get into the Bitcoin business! “The scope and severity of Mr. Le Roux’s criminal conduct is nothing short of breathtaking. I have before me a man who has engaged in conduct in keeping with the villain in a James Bond movie,” Judge Abrahms said. "I plan to start a business selling and hosting bitcoin miners." [3] You love to see it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Le_Roux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Le_Roux [2] https://www.wired.com/story/was-bitcoin-created-by-this-international-drug-dealer-maybe/ https://www.wired.com/story/was-bitcoin-created-by-this-inte... [3] https://news.bitcoin.com/satoshi-nakamoto-paul-le-roux-start-bitcoin-mining-business/ https://news.bitcoin.com/satoshi-nakamoto-paul-le-roux-start...

deleted 6y ago

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cryptica 6y ago

For Paypal, this is just inflation protection for their customers. Inflation is going to be much higher going forward so this feature is more important now. It's for people who leave a bunch of money sitting idle in their Paypal accounts for several months and don't want it to lose buying power. Paypal can achieve this by holding onto Bitcoin reserves to back their customers' funds. What this means is that Bitcoin is going to become the new gold standard. This will allow Paypal to take the place of traditional banks and help society to transition away from fractional reserve banking backed by fiat currency. It is very clever and brave of Paypal to do this.