5 ms·

Not sure why you’re getting downvoted - here’s a page about post-intensive care syndrome, on the website of the society for critical care medicine, that’s conco

Not sure why you’re getting downvoted - here’s a page about post-intensive care syndrome, on the website of the society for critical care medicine, that’s concordant with what you said: https://www.sccm.org/MyICUCare/THRIVE/Post-intensive-Care-Syndrome https://www.sccm.org/MyICUCare/THRIVE/Post-intensive-Care-Sy...

noja 6y ago
> Not sure why you’re getting downvoted I think he overlooked that the people were hospitalized and on ventilators because they had covid.
- xd 6y ago
  But it's still an effect of the treatment. If you perform a study on people whom have been ill you're going to get results that show all the symptoms of illness.. the study could have been done with any illness and likely show cognitive decline.
  - shultays 6y ago
    symptoms of illness is the illness itself. Ignoring these symptoms of covid or results of the treatment is saying something like "bullets don't kill people, it ruptures blood vessels and you die due to loss of blood"
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      You misunderstand the ambiguous wording. If you study only includes people with an illness, the illness itself is a confounder. The point is that if you have a non-ICU covid case, this research is unlikely to apply.
      - jrumbut 6y ago
        It feels like we didn't read the same article, they break down numbers for people on ventilators but also hospitalized, non-ventilator patients all the way down to those who received no particular care. The findings were concerning to anyone who had it, they also mention cases where the cognitive deficit was the first reported symptom.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > symptoms of illness is the illness itself Is it a symptom of the illness or a symptom of the treatment? If you had a better treatment protocol, would it still happen to the same degree?
    - _pmf_ 6y ago
      Symptoms from chemo therapy are NOT commonly classified as symptoms of the cancer that it's supposed to treat. Why do we have to make up extra rules for everything Covid-19 related?
      - nate_meurer 6y ago
        This is a good analogy, but the conclusion I take from it is different from yours. Whether an effect of a disease is a symptom of the treatment or of the disease itself doesn't matter to me. Either way, I'd rather not get the disease if I can help it.
bildung 6y ago
Probably because according to the paper, Covid-positive patients not on ventilators also had the mental impairment problems, only to a lesser degree.
- darkerside 6y ago
  He's replying to the comment in front of him. Seems relevant.
bregma 6y ago
I think it was the 'almost nobody' crack. Everybody is somebody.
rfrey 6y ago
Possibly for what HN calls "middlebrow dismissal" - wandering in and dismissing the article with blindingly obvious issues ("probably caused by the sedatives, immobilization" etc) as if professional medical researchers wouldn't have thought of them. They plainly need a clear-eyed HN reader on staff to help them.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Possibly for what HN calls "middlebrow dismissal" - wandering in and dismissing the article with blindingly obvious issues ("probably caused by the sedatives, immobilization" etc) as if professional medical researchers wouldn't have thought of them. They plainly need a clear-eyed HN reader on staff to help them. That term is very apt. I found this blog post about it, which I think really hits the nail on the head, too: http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissals-so-tempting/ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissal... > Paul Graham, News.YC’s moderator emeritus, says that “The defining quality of the middlebrow dismissal is that it’s a cache dump of the writer’s prejudices…” This probably explains why they’re so common. It’s natural to see any news story as confirmation of your existing prejudices—but it’s easy to read confirmation where it’s not there. So it’s easy to see Groupon or Zynga as a “failure” for being worth merely a couple billion dollars when they were once worth ten billion plus apiece. (You could get pretty rich failing like that a few times.) > But the real driver is not just that it’s easy to misread a story as confirming your beliefs. It’s that the alternative is to read a story and realize you were wrong. And since a middlebrow dismissal is a dismissal of something, it’s generally a dismissal of something that disagrees with the reader’s bias.
  - milesvp 6y ago
    That last paragraph was oddly hard for me to parse this morning, possibly because I havn’t thought enough about this aspect of confirmation bias. Be conciencious when dismissing something that’s inconsistent with your world view, seems like very good advice, at least if the source is credible.
- ghufran_syed 6y ago
  Ahh, that's helpful, thanks! I think I unconsciously strip out a lot of that tone when I read, but I can see how it would be unhelpful

noja 6y ago

> Not sure why you’re getting downvoted I think he overlooked that the people were hospitalized and on ventilators because they had covid.

xd 6y ago
But it's still an effect of the treatment. If you perform a study on people whom have been ill you're going to get results that show all the symptoms of illness.. the study could have been done with any illness and likely show cognitive decline.
- shultays 6y ago
  symptoms of illness is the illness itself. Ignoring these symptoms of covid or results of the treatment is saying something like "bullets don't kill people, it ruptures blood vessels and you die due to loss of blood"
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    You misunderstand the ambiguous wording. If you study only includes people with an illness, the illness itself is a confounder. The point is that if you have a non-ICU covid case, this research is unlikely to apply.
    - jrumbut 6y ago
      It feels like we didn't read the same article, they break down numbers for people on ventilators but also hospitalized, non-ventilator patients all the way down to those who received no particular care. The findings were concerning to anyone who had it, they also mention cases where the cognitive deficit was the first reported symptom.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > symptoms of illness is the illness itself Is it a symptom of the illness or a symptom of the treatment? If you had a better treatment protocol, would it still happen to the same degree?
  - _pmf_ 6y ago
    Symptoms from chemo therapy are NOT commonly classified as symptoms of the cancer that it's supposed to treat. Why do we have to make up extra rules for everything Covid-19 related?
    - nate_meurer 6y ago
      This is a good analogy, but the conclusion I take from it is different from yours. Whether an effect of a disease is a symptom of the treatment or of the disease itself doesn't matter to me. Either way, I'd rather not get the disease if I can help it.

bildung 6y ago

Probably because according to the paper, Covid-positive patients not on ventilators also had the mental impairment problems, only to a lesser degree.

darkerside 6y ago
He's replying to the comment in front of him. Seems relevant.

bregma 6y ago

I think it was the 'almost nobody' crack. Everybody is somebody.

rfrey 6y ago

Possibly for what HN calls "middlebrow dismissal" - wandering in and dismissing the article with blindingly obvious issues ("probably caused by the sedatives, immobilization" etc) as if professional medical researchers wouldn't have thought of them. They plainly need a clear-eyed HN reader on staff to help them.

ardy42 6y ago
> Possibly for what HN calls "middlebrow dismissal" - wandering in and dismissing the article with blindingly obvious issues ("probably caused by the sedatives, immobilization" etc) as if professional medical researchers wouldn't have thought of them. They plainly need a clear-eyed HN reader on staff to help them. That term is very apt. I found this blog post about it, which I think really hits the nail on the head, too: http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissals-so-tempting/ http://www.byrnehobart.com/blog/why-are-middlebrow-dismissal... > Paul Graham, News.YC’s moderator emeritus, says that “The defining quality of the middlebrow dismissal is that it’s a cache dump of the writer’s prejudices…” This probably explains why they’re so common. It’s natural to see any news story as confirmation of your existing prejudices—but it’s easy to read confirmation where it’s not there. So it’s easy to see Groupon or Zynga as a “failure” for being worth merely a couple billion dollars when they were once worth ten billion plus apiece. (You could get pretty rich failing like that a few times.) > But the real driver is not just that it’s easy to misread a story as confirming your beliefs. It’s that the alternative is to read a story and realize you were wrong. And since a middlebrow dismissal is a dismissal of something, it’s generally a dismissal of something that disagrees with the reader’s bias.
- milesvp 6y ago
  That last paragraph was oddly hard for me to parse this morning, possibly because I havn’t thought enough about this aspect of confirmation bias. Be conciencious when dismissing something that’s inconsistent with your world view, seems like very good advice, at least if the source is credible.
ghufran_syed 6y ago
Ahh, that's helpful, thanks! I think I unconsciously strip out a lot of that tone when I read, but I can see how it would be unhelpful