4 ms·

How about that the format strongly encourages use of 2D representation even for fundamentally 1D data?

by kd0amg 6y ago

tgflynn 6y ago
If the data is fundamentally 1D then why is it arranged with insets and multiple columns ? I think the answer is that it's arranged that way because that arrangement makes it easier for humans to interpret. Because humans prefer to see data in such 2D arrangements, file formats like PDF were developed so that 2D layouts could be defined and preserved across platforms. Hence the fundamental problem here is that we want computers to be able to read data that is designed for human readability. That is not an easy problem and it is in fact a large part of what people mean when they talk about "AI".
- kd0amg 6y ago
  I'd push that a step further and say the problem is about data that's been rendered into a different form for human readability. The plain serial text of a magazine article exists in principle and likely wasn't written with ideas like column splits and image-wrapping at the front of the author's mind. 2sk21 advocates shipping that serial form instead of something image-like. That's what's machine-hostile about PDF: it makes the least semantically significant parts easy for the machine to discern at the cost of obfuscating the really important ideas. Though as a counterpoint, separating content from presentation is already a fairly common practice.
  - tgflynn 6y ago
    I think it depends a great deal on what type of data you're talking about. If it's a magazine article then yes it's essentially a stream of text and 2D formatting is probably secondary. However if it's tabular data then the 2D formatting is essential to its interpretation. A lot of the text we encounter in the world does depend to a significant extent on 2D layout to facilitate its comprehension. Examples include many (perhaps most) websites, product labels, tax forms and receipts. None of that is the fault of the PDF format which is intended to faithfully represent 2D layouts. As you mention, if the goal is accurate labeling of content other formats exist which are more suitable to that purpose (though I think the concept of separating content from presentation has always worked better in theory than in practice).

How about that the format strongly encourages use of 2D representation even for fundamentally 1D data?

by kd0amg 6y ago

How about that the format strongly encourages use of 2D representation even for fundamentally 1D data?

If the data is fundamentally 1D then why is it arranged with insets and multiple columns ? I think the answer is that it's arranged that way because that arrangement makes it easier for humans to interpret. Because humans prefer to see data in such 2D arrangements, file formats like PDF were developed so that 2D layouts could be defined and preserved across platforms. Hence the fundamental problem here is that we want computers to be able to read data that is designed for human readability. That is not an easy problem and it is in fact a large part of what people mean when they talk about "AI".

kd0amg 6y ago
I'd push that a step further and say the problem is about data that's been rendered into a different form for human readability. The plain serial text of a magazine article exists in principle and likely wasn't written with ideas like column splits and image-wrapping at the front of the author's mind. 2sk21 advocates shipping that serial form instead of something image-like. That's what's machine-hostile about PDF: it makes the least semantically significant parts easy for the machine to discern at the cost of obfuscating the really important ideas. Though as a counterpoint, separating content from presentation is already a fairly common practice.
- tgflynn 6y ago
  I think it depends a great deal on what type of data you're talking about. If it's a magazine article then yes it's essentially a stream of text and 2D formatting is probably secondary. However if it's tabular data then the 2D formatting is essential to its interpretation. A lot of the text we encounter in the world does depend to a significant extent on 2D layout to facilitate its comprehension. Examples include many (perhaps most) websites, product labels, tax forms and receipts. None of that is the fault of the PDF format which is intended to faithfully represent 2D layouts. As you mention, if the goal is accurate labeling of content other formats exist which are more suitable to that purpose (though I think the concept of separating content from presentation has always worked better in theory than in practice).