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I've been seeing this sentiment a lot on LinkedIn, particularly with new developers entering the field. Leaving aside the whole argument about whether or not we

I've been seeing this sentiment a lot on LinkedIn, particularly with new developers entering the field. Leaving aside the whole argument about whether or not we should really be calling software developers engineers, a lot of these same people are advertising themselves as full-stack. I'm sorry, but you going through a 10-week bootcamp or even getting a 4 year CS degree does not make you full-stack. It's comparable to how we laugh at recruiters when they ask for 5 years in a given language that has only been around for 2 years. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. I always tell the folks I mentor through bootcamps they should figure out which area they like best, focus most of their efforts in that area, and then advertise themselves as a front-end developer or back-end developer or whatever, not full-stack. The upside down T approach. Show recruiters and hiring managers you at least know enough to know what you don't know. And stop complaining on LinkedIn about how unfair it is that you don't have a million job opportunities pouring in or about all the applications you submitted and didn't hear back from - yes it's annoying, but if you advertise yourself as something you're not, you've likely already wasted someone else's time, so understand they probably don't want to waste anymore giving you an explanation for why you were passed over.

ipnon 6y ago
If you can write a web page that submits a user form and a server that writes that data to a persistent database ... I'm failing to see which part of the "stack" is unfilled. This is what bootcamps teach.
- Inception 6y ago
  Yes, bootcamps teach you the basics of each part of the stack. I would make the argument that you aren't proficient in any of these areas, so to advertise yourself as such is misleading. I file my own taxes, but I don't refer to myself as an accountant. I've yet to meet a bootcamp grad that can efficiently architect a relational database, for example. I know plenty of Sr. level front-end developers who wouldn't think to call themselves full-stack even though they know how to submit a user form that persists to the database. Same with back-end developers who know HTML, CSS, and pick your flavor of JS framework. If you've worked in the industry, you know things change too fast to stay up to speed on everything. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely and unrealistic to have that expectation of someone once they are employed.
  - avgDev 6y ago
    Being full-stack does not mean you are a HTML and CSS expert. Anyone hiring a full-stack dev should know that. Full-stack means you can create a functional web application. It doesn't have to be in the latest JS library. Many non-tech employers careless about your stack, as long as the application performs the tasks they want and the cost is reasonable. A full stack dev most likely won't be an expert in any particular area but should have a good understanding of the web so they can pick up different JS libraries, web frameworks easily.
    - Inception 6y ago
      Just call yourself a web developer then. Does someone outside of the tech world really know what full-stack means without an explanation? And also, I don't consider full-stack exclusive to the web. Desktop apps, for example.
      - srtjstjsj 6y ago
        "full stack" is a pretentious term web devs made up for themselves.
    - hobby-coder-guy 6y ago
      Care less
- whatsac0mput0r 6y ago
  You're missing the edge, which is very very broad. Suppose your employer wants your web app to interface with an industrial PLC, or fetch data from a car's CAN bus, or talk to a vending machine (ironically the sort of machine that Java was originally designed for). Most bootcamps don't teach enough fundamentals for someone to figure out how to write both client- and server-side code for those sorts of situations. Or on the other end of the spectrum, could you write hypervisor code to manage the sort of mass-scale VM deployments behind most cloud providers? It would be very difficult to be an expert on the "full stack", if you think about it. So...tl;dr, most of the application layer? Probably the physical layer too, any how many of us really work with the link layer?
H8crilA 6y ago
Yup. People don't realize how many applicants literally can't even pass FizzBuzz, or some slightly more complicated variant. It is not just a meme. Dunning–Kruger.
- decafninja 6y ago
  I see this a lot on forums, blogs, Reddit, etc. but after having interviewed many candidates, I have yet to see someone that incompetent. My company is not a hot Silicon Valley tech company either. It's a dull, boring, investment bank. I am generally not impressed at the quality level of most of the candidates we get when we hire. But still 100% of them are able to code more than well enough to pass FizzBuzz. Now throw anything beyond the easiest of leetcode easy level questions at them and the majority will struggle. But that is still a level above Fizzbuzz and the like. And most come from backgrounds where the last job they were hired for did not leetcode them, but rather relied on language/framework trivia type interviews.
  - xtracto 6y ago
    Well, it is not FizzBuzz, but the challenge I ask as a "evidently bad" filter ( http://challenge.paystand.mx/challenge http://challenge.paystand.mx/challenge ) is just a couple of GET / POST requests . You would not imagine how many people (fortunately) get filtered by this step.
    - user5994461 6y ago
      I can imagine an embedded developer unable to do that, they never do HTTP requests and it's a nightmare to implement in C or C++, a web developer in python/ruby/node should do fine. It's selecting for languages and candidates with built-in support for HTTP and json and base64. It's far from a 1h problem if the candidate has to find working libraries for each of that.
      - xtracto 6y ago
        Deffinitely right. This is for positions in a SaaS company where the developer would be mostly doing backend or frontend code.
acjohnson55 6y ago
Eh, I think it's fine. If you're going in at entry level, your expertise won't be that deep, but full-stack just means open to joining a team that does front-end, back-end or both. The typical bootcamp grad can develop into a specialist or generalist as they go, given support and resources.
- Inception 6y ago
  I think saying you are full-stack is misleading and it sets job-seekers up for failure. And I would argue it's not fine, since it's these same types of people whining about what terrible luck they are having (purely anecdotal of course). A few ideas that I think would give these grads some better luck: - Update your profile to say "Interested in joining a front-end or back-end team" or "tech generalist with a focus on X" - Elaborate even further in your About section and let people know which of the two you are stronger in and what experience you have - Swap out "full-stack" for "web developer" Don't tell me you're something you're not. Under-promise, over deliver. Seeing full-stack on a resume sets my expectations for whoever I'm about to interview regardless of the number of years of experience. edit: styling
  - waynesonfire 6y ago
    full stack is a front-end engineer and they're willing to deal with the shitty JS stack.
    - decafninja 6y ago
      My personal experience interviewing for "full stack" and "front end" roles. Full stack interview tracks seem to be identical to backend/generalist tracks. Purely leetcode questions up the wazoo. Some front end interview tracks are the same. But I'm seeing more and more cases where they will throw "implement feature X in JavaScript" type questions, not leetcode.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    This assumes that they are applying to companies with separate frontend and backend teams. My company only has one small team so we all do a bit of everything: frontend web, react native app, backend, ops stuff. We'd never hire someone who was only front-end or only backend because that would leave half the job they weren't doing. But we have hired junior engineers who have only a little professional experience. Seeing full-stack on a resume shouldn't set any expectations other than they have and intend to continue working on both front-end and backend code.
cmdshiftf4 6y ago
>I've been seeing this sentiment a lot on LinkedIn, particularly with new developers entering the field. It honestly just amounts to "The most well compensating jobs with the most competition to attain them have a difficult application process, and that is unfair (to me) because of X, Y or Z". These posts are positively dripping in grandiose levels of entitlement.
watwut 6y ago
I always understood full-stack as "willing to work on both server and client side". In opposition from people who work only on frontend or only on server.

ipnon 6y ago

If you can write a web page that submits a user form and a server that writes that data to a persistent database ... I'm failing to see which part of the "stack" is unfilled. This is what bootcamps teach.

Inception 6y ago
Yes, bootcamps teach you the basics of each part of the stack. I would make the argument that you aren't proficient in any of these areas, so to advertise yourself as such is misleading. I file my own taxes, but I don't refer to myself as an accountant. I've yet to meet a bootcamp grad that can efficiently architect a relational database, for example. I know plenty of Sr. level front-end developers who wouldn't think to call themselves full-stack even though they know how to submit a user form that persists to the database. Same with back-end developers who know HTML, CSS, and pick your flavor of JS framework. If you've worked in the industry, you know things change too fast to stay up to speed on everything. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely and unrealistic to have that expectation of someone once they are employed.
- avgDev 6y ago
  Being full-stack does not mean you are a HTML and CSS expert. Anyone hiring a full-stack dev should know that. Full-stack means you can create a functional web application. It doesn't have to be in the latest JS library. Many non-tech employers careless about your stack, as long as the application performs the tasks they want and the cost is reasonable. A full stack dev most likely won't be an expert in any particular area but should have a good understanding of the web so they can pick up different JS libraries, web frameworks easily.
  - Inception 6y ago
    Just call yourself a web developer then. Does someone outside of the tech world really know what full-stack means without an explanation? And also, I don't consider full-stack exclusive to the web. Desktop apps, for example.
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      "full stack" is a pretentious term web devs made up for themselves.
  - hobby-coder-guy 6y ago
    Care less
whatsac0mput0r 6y ago
You're missing the edge, which is very very broad. Suppose your employer wants your web app to interface with an industrial PLC, or fetch data from a car's CAN bus, or talk to a vending machine (ironically the sort of machine that Java was originally designed for). Most bootcamps don't teach enough fundamentals for someone to figure out how to write both client- and server-side code for those sorts of situations. Or on the other end of the spectrum, could you write hypervisor code to manage the sort of mass-scale VM deployments behind most cloud providers? It would be very difficult to be an expert on the "full stack", if you think about it. So...tl;dr, most of the application layer? Probably the physical layer too, any how many of us really work with the link layer?

H8crilA 6y ago

Yup. People don't realize how many applicants literally can't even pass FizzBuzz, or some slightly more complicated variant. It is not just a meme. Dunning–Kruger.

decafninja 6y ago
I see this a lot on forums, blogs, Reddit, etc. but after having interviewed many candidates, I have yet to see someone that incompetent. My company is not a hot Silicon Valley tech company either. It's a dull, boring, investment bank. I am generally not impressed at the quality level of most of the candidates we get when we hire. But still 100% of them are able to code more than well enough to pass FizzBuzz. Now throw anything beyond the easiest of leetcode easy level questions at them and the majority will struggle. But that is still a level above Fizzbuzz and the like. And most come from backgrounds where the last job they were hired for did not leetcode them, but rather relied on language/framework trivia type interviews.
- xtracto 6y ago
  Well, it is not FizzBuzz, but the challenge I ask as a "evidently bad" filter ( http://challenge.paystand.mx/challenge http://challenge.paystand.mx/challenge ) is just a couple of GET / POST requests . You would not imagine how many people (fortunately) get filtered by this step.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    I can imagine an embedded developer unable to do that, they never do HTTP requests and it's a nightmare to implement in C or C++, a web developer in python/ruby/node should do fine. It's selecting for languages and candidates with built-in support for HTTP and json and base64. It's far from a 1h problem if the candidate has to find working libraries for each of that.
    - xtracto 6y ago
      Deffinitely right. This is for positions in a SaaS company where the developer would be mostly doing backend or frontend code.

acjohnson55 6y ago

Eh, I think it's fine. If you're going in at entry level, your expertise won't be that deep, but full-stack just means open to joining a team that does front-end, back-end or both. The typical bootcamp grad can develop into a specialist or generalist as they go, given support and resources.

Inception 6y ago
I think saying you are full-stack is misleading and it sets job-seekers up for failure. And I would argue it's not fine, since it's these same types of people whining about what terrible luck they are having (purely anecdotal of course). A few ideas that I think would give these grads some better luck: - Update your profile to say "Interested in joining a front-end or back-end team" or "tech generalist with a focus on X" - Elaborate even further in your About section and let people know which of the two you are stronger in and what experience you have - Swap out "full-stack" for "web developer" Don't tell me you're something you're not. Under-promise, over deliver. Seeing full-stack on a resume sets my expectations for whoever I'm about to interview regardless of the number of years of experience. edit: styling
- waynesonfire 6y ago
  full stack is a front-end engineer and they're willing to deal with the shitty JS stack.
  - decafninja 6y ago
    My personal experience interviewing for "full stack" and "front end" roles. Full stack interview tracks seem to be identical to backend/generalist tracks. Purely leetcode questions up the wazoo. Some front end interview tracks are the same. But I'm seeing more and more cases where they will throw "implement feature X in JavaScript" type questions, not leetcode.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  This assumes that they are applying to companies with separate frontend and backend teams. My company only has one small team so we all do a bit of everything: frontend web, react native app, backend, ops stuff. We'd never hire someone who was only front-end or only backend because that would leave half the job they weren't doing. But we have hired junior engineers who have only a little professional experience. Seeing full-stack on a resume shouldn't set any expectations other than they have and intend to continue working on both front-end and backend code.

cmdshiftf4 6y ago

>I've been seeing this sentiment a lot on LinkedIn, particularly with new developers entering the field. It honestly just amounts to "The most well compensating jobs with the most competition to attain them have a difficult application process, and that is unfair (to me) because of X, Y or Z". These posts are positively dripping in grandiose levels of entitlement.

watwut 6y ago

I always understood full-stack as "willing to work on both server and client side". In opposition from people who work only on frontend or only on server.