3 ms·

I'd argue there's a huge responsibility on the folks writing moderation tools like this to ensure they don't have adverse side-effects like this. In the sci-fi

I'd argue there's a huge responsibility on the folks writing moderation tools like this to ensure they don't have adverse side-effects like this. In the sci-fi Matrix reputation world, I can absolutely see somebody curating a reputation list called #bad-people:example.com which they prime by finding every user ID in every room they don't like and blanket assigning them -1000 reputation. If then a moderator was dumb enough to subscribe to #bad-people:example.com and use it to impose a ban list on their rooms, then I'd hope that their community would arch an eyebrow at the crassness and treat them like a rogue moderator and either get them removed, or fork and go elsewhere... assuming that it's possible to visualise the filters which have been put in place. There's a huge responsibility on the tool author to ensure that the users can see what filters are in place, and what they do, and encourage the user to challenge them - but again, hopefully, the market will vote with its feet and users will adopt the best tools available, and avoid being trapped under primitive moderation systems like the ones you refer to here. tl;dr: we need better, morally relative reputation systems - rather than zero reputation system. liberal plurality >> anarchy ;)

omanom 6y ago
>there's a huge responsibility on the folks writing moderation tools like this I'm fatalistic in my opinion that all moderation tools would eventually end up in situations like this. The Rise of The Power-User just feels too inevitable to me. Once you have power-users you start to have clashing of egos. Once you have egos, you start to have censorship (as opposed to moderation).
- girvo 6y ago
  I honestly think it’s an unsolvable problem, via technical means anyway. As it seems to speak to the fundamental nature of human relationships and communities. God I hope I’m wrong, though!
phone8675309 6y ago
> I'd argue there's a huge responsibility on the folks writing moderation tools like this to ensure they don't have adverse side-effects like this. With all due respect, this is a naive take: the tools that are used on reddit for autobanning people from subreddits based on subreddits they've posted in are designed strictly to de-legitimize voices not in ideological lockstep with their own. >If then a moderator was dumb enough to subscribe to #bad-people:example.com and use it to impose a ban list on their rooms, then I'd hope that their community would arch an eyebrow at the crassness and treat them like a rogue moderator and either get them removed, or fork and go elsewhere The issue with forks is that they either unify the community (a successful fork) or completely divide the community (ffmpeg versus libav). It is more likely that such a system will divide communities and encourage infighting rather than consensus. Question: did you ask anyone with experience with community building and community dynamics about this proposed reputation system, and if so, what were their comments?
- kixiQu 6y ago
  Whether they have the effect of "[de-legitimizing] voices not in ideological lockstep with their own", the stated goal is often to prevent brigading. If you don't think that's a real problem, don't think that people are seeking solutions in good faith, or don't think these solutions are effective, please say that.
  - omanom 6y ago
    I think brigading is a real enough problem that moderators/administrators need to at the very minimum be aware of it and ready to step in if needed. I think Matrix is seeking a solution in good faith. I don't think the Reddit situation I brought up was a solution founded in good faith. I don't think these solutions are effective, however I unfortunately do not have an alternative to suggest which would be effective.
    - phone8675309 6y ago
      >I think brigading is a real enough problem that moderators/administrators need to at the very minimum be aware of it and ready to step in if needed. I also think that brigading on reddit is an inherent problem with the way that reddit is structured and that no amount of stapled on tools will fix the problem in the most general case because they can't make the determination on the intent of the person accused of brigading. At best they can detect patterns of repeat behavior in an automated fashion.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    The parent comment is saying that, they're saying that they're used to solve a problem other than the one they're stated to solve.
  - phone8675309 6y ago
    > the stated goal is often to prevent brigading I believe stated goal to be a figleaf > If you don't think that's a real problem, don't think that people are seeking solutions in good faith, or don't think these solutions are effective, please say that. I don't think that the majority of people deploying these solutions on reddit are doing so in good faith. Hope that clarifies my position.

omanom 6y ago

>there's a huge responsibility on the folks writing moderation tools like this I'm fatalistic in my opinion that all moderation tools would eventually end up in situations like this. The Rise of The Power-User just feels too inevitable to me. Once you have power-users you start to have clashing of egos. Once you have egos, you start to have censorship (as opposed to moderation).

girvo 6y ago
I honestly think it’s an unsolvable problem, via technical means anyway. As it seems to speak to the fundamental nature of human relationships and communities. God I hope I’m wrong, though!

phone8675309 6y ago

> I'd argue there's a huge responsibility on the folks writing moderation tools like this to ensure they don't have adverse side-effects like this. With all due respect, this is a naive take: the tools that are used on reddit for autobanning people from subreddits based on subreddits they've posted in are designed strictly to de-legitimize voices not in ideological lockstep with their own. >If then a moderator was dumb enough to subscribe to #bad-people:example.com and use it to impose a ban list on their rooms, then I'd hope that their community would arch an eyebrow at the crassness and treat them like a rogue moderator and either get them removed, or fork and go elsewhere The issue with forks is that they either unify the community (a successful fork) or completely divide the community (ffmpeg versus libav). It is more likely that such a system will divide communities and encourage infighting rather than consensus. Question: did you ask anyone with experience with community building and community dynamics about this proposed reputation system, and if so, what were their comments?

kixiQu 6y ago
Whether they have the effect of "[de-legitimizing] voices not in ideological lockstep with their own", the stated goal is often to prevent brigading. If you don't think that's a real problem, don't think that people are seeking solutions in good faith, or don't think these solutions are effective, please say that.
- omanom 6y ago
  I think brigading is a real enough problem that moderators/administrators need to at the very minimum be aware of it and ready to step in if needed. I think Matrix is seeking a solution in good faith. I don't think the Reddit situation I brought up was a solution founded in good faith. I don't think these solutions are effective, however I unfortunately do not have an alternative to suggest which would be effective.
  - phone8675309 6y ago
    >I think brigading is a real enough problem that moderators/administrators need to at the very minimum be aware of it and ready to step in if needed. I also think that brigading on reddit is an inherent problem with the way that reddit is structured and that no amount of stapled on tools will fix the problem in the most general case because they can't make the determination on the intent of the person accused of brigading. At best they can detect patterns of repeat behavior in an automated fashion.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  The parent comment is saying that, they're saying that they're used to solve a problem other than the one they're stated to solve.
- phone8675309 6y ago
  > the stated goal is often to prevent brigading I believe stated goal to be a figleaf > If you don't think that's a real problem, don't think that people are seeking solutions in good faith, or don't think these solutions are effective, please say that. I don't think that the majority of people deploying these solutions on reddit are doing so in good faith. Hope that clarifies my position.