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>If you have a legitimate mandate from the electorate, you can get an awful lot done. It took Massachusetts 3 years to open a recreational marijuana shop after

>If you have a legitimate mandate from the electorate, you can get an awful lot done. It took Massachusetts 3 years to open a recreational marijuana shop after a ballot initiative passed for legalization.

simonh 6y ago
Which is why ballot initiatives and referendums are so often a terrible idea. The problem is the executive have no ownership of the proposal and don’t feel any responsibility for it unless they were the ones campaigning for it. In a democracy the way to get something done is for someone to get elected on a platform to implement it and then own delivering it once in office. I’m a Brit and Brexit is a classic example of the failure of referendums. None of the political parties wanted it and for several years after we had a Prime Minister who had opposed it. Result - years of confusion and recrimination. Even when it happens (actually it already has) there will be endless arguments about whether it’s a “real” Brexit. Elect leaders you trust and the let them lead. If you don’t like the results, vote them back out.
- bluntfang 6y ago
  This comment seems to be at odds with your original one. So if the people vote democratically for something, and the elected officials don't do it, it's the people fault for not doing democracy the right way? I'm not sure there's a better example of democracy than when people vote for something that it happens.
- vinay427 6y ago
  Please don't use Brexit as an example indicative of all ballot iniatives and referendums. California (especially SF and possibly a few other cities), Switzerland, and a few other places have a large number of referendums on their ballots and they generally go alright in my opinion, even when some of the details have not been hammered out. I say that as someone that has lived in both of these places. I think the benefit to social acceptance and trust in a government because of the mandate provided is worth it by itself, and while one may not agree with many of the outcomes, the decisions rarely yield unforeseen consequences which (to me) feels like democracy in practice. Also, it provides an incentive for the public to value widespread quality public education and meeting basic living standards a bit more if immediate governmental policies depend on it. Obviously, there are occasional problems, like the Swiss EU referendum which was approved but widely viewed as watered-down in practice, but it's worked very well in my opinion in other instances such as (in case you're curious about Swiss history) the formation of the canton of Jura.
  - simonh 6y ago
    I'm not entirely against referendums, I think there are cases in which they make sense. One is issues where it's not even really a political issue. Capital punishment for example. Another is where the question has significant constitutional consequences and a party seeks an additional mandate for their policy beyond a simple electoral mandate. Brexit could fit that category, in the same way that joining the EU did, but the change should be one the government is willing to take responsibility for implementing. It should be a supplement to their electoral mandate for a policy, not a vote to impose a responsibility on government it doesn't want to take. This was James Cameron's fundamental blunder. Switzerland has another classic example of a failed ballot initiative. They voted in 2014 to limit migration from the EU, an initiative promoted by a party that was not in power. So again you had a government bound to implement a policy that was not their policy, which they were unable in practice to deliver. Who takes responsibility for that? It's just asking for trouble. In California the legislature has been ham strung by a series of initiatives ring fencing spending on various areas such as education, and others limiting taxation in various ways squeezing the state budget. Of course give the electorate a vote on more spending and a vote on lower taxes, guess what happens.

simonh 6y ago

Which is why ballot initiatives and referendums are so often a terrible idea. The problem is the executive have no ownership of the proposal and don’t feel any responsibility for it unless they were the ones campaigning for it. In a democracy the way to get something done is for someone to get elected on a platform to implement it and then own delivering it once in office. I’m a Brit and Brexit is a classic example of the failure of referendums. None of the political parties wanted it and for several years after we had a Prime Minister who had opposed it. Result - years of confusion and recrimination. Even when it happens (actually it already has) there will be endless arguments about whether it’s a “real” Brexit. Elect leaders you trust and the let them lead. If you don’t like the results, vote them back out.

bluntfang 6y ago
This comment seems to be at odds with your original one. So if the people vote democratically for something, and the elected officials don't do it, it's the people fault for not doing democracy the right way? I'm not sure there's a better example of democracy than when people vote for something that it happens.
vinay427 6y ago
Please don't use Brexit as an example indicative of all ballot iniatives and referendums. California (especially SF and possibly a few other cities), Switzerland, and a few other places have a large number of referendums on their ballots and they generally go alright in my opinion, even when some of the details have not been hammered out. I say that as someone that has lived in both of these places. I think the benefit to social acceptance and trust in a government because of the mandate provided is worth it by itself, and while one may not agree with many of the outcomes, the decisions rarely yield unforeseen consequences which (to me) feels like democracy in practice. Also, it provides an incentive for the public to value widespread quality public education and meeting basic living standards a bit more if immediate governmental policies depend on it. Obviously, there are occasional problems, like the Swiss EU referendum which was approved but widely viewed as watered-down in practice, but it's worked very well in my opinion in other instances such as (in case you're curious about Swiss history) the formation of the canton of Jura.
- simonh 6y ago
  I'm not entirely against referendums, I think there are cases in which they make sense. One is issues where it's not even really a political issue. Capital punishment for example. Another is where the question has significant constitutional consequences and a party seeks an additional mandate for their policy beyond a simple electoral mandate. Brexit could fit that category, in the same way that joining the EU did, but the change should be one the government is willing to take responsibility for implementing. It should be a supplement to their electoral mandate for a policy, not a vote to impose a responsibility on government it doesn't want to take. This was James Cameron's fundamental blunder. Switzerland has another classic example of a failed ballot initiative. They voted in 2014 to limit migration from the EU, an initiative promoted by a party that was not in power. So again you had a government bound to implement a policy that was not their policy, which they were unable in practice to deliver. Who takes responsibility for that? It's just asking for trouble. In California the legislature has been ham strung by a series of initiatives ring fencing spending on various areas such as education, and others limiting taxation in various ways squeezing the state budget. Of course give the electorate a vote on more spending and a vote on lower taxes, guess what happens.