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Do you not think that criticizing a religion is an acceptable thing for someone (e.g. an academic) to do? Indeed, that it would be a terrible thing if our acade

Do you not think that criticizing a religion is an acceptable thing for someone (e.g. an academic) to do? Indeed, that it would be a terrible thing if our academics were not free to criticize cultural movements such as religions? He wasn't speaking at a kindergarten; he was speaking at a university society that exists to platform intellectual debate.

croon 6y ago
Yes, I remember when he did that with Christianity. I'm agnostic and I have his old books in my bookcase. He wasn't "criticizing" Islam, he was fearmongering. Then he started cozying up with evangelists as long as they hated "post-modernists" enough. He has (previously) had a lot of good things to say, and at some point he abandoned his ideals in favor of politics, and just became another Jordan Peterson crank.
- da39a3ee 6y ago
  Yes, I'm a biologist, and I also read all his old books when I was younger. I can see why you might think that he's only interested in politics based on media coverage, but it actually isn't true: I went to listen to him speak in Berkeley 3 years ago, and it was nearly all about the old stuff: gene-level selection, kin selection, etc. Two years later he was due to come again at the invitation of the same radio station, but his invitation was canceled, due to the influence of "progressives". > abandoned his ideals I certainly wouldn't say that about him! What makes you think so? > Then he started cozying up with evangelists as long as they hated "post-modernists" enough. Could you tell me what you're referring to there? I agree he hates post-modernism.
  - croon 6y ago
    https://web.archive.org/web/20190929045043/https:/twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/1178170072537264129 https://web.archive.org/web/20190929045043/https:/twitter.co... https://web.archive.org/web/20190929094120if_/https://twitter.com/saeen90_/status/1178242652468400128 https://web.archive.org/web/20190929094120if_/https://twitte... But I don't really care about his views on biological genders, but what relevant point did he have when writing this message down in the blog post?: https://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/ https://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/ He's become a political agitator, and increasingly rarely a scientist. This is not meant to say "stick to science", but if he wants to be political, I'm going to criticize is politics, because they suck and he does deserve scorn for them. Maybe as an old guy don't tell a woman that her experience is wrong. I don't think that this is a radical "post-modernist" idea.
    - da39a3ee 6y ago
      Thanks for digging out those links. > Pretentious postmodern nonsense is a serious menace in universities... I'm not sure what you expect me to object to there. If you don't think postmodernism has caused serious damage and is a terrible influence on peoples minds in the humanities then we'll have to agree to disagree. > Some event with christians and anti-postmodernists speaking Again, I'm not sure what you think the problem is. Dawkins isn't saying Christians should be deplatformed. His tweet was doubtless intended to promote the anti-postmodernists; you can't scour every retweet for transitive ideological inconsistencies. Well, maybe people do, but I don't think that's a good use of time. > The letter to an imaginary muslim girl Yeah, it's a bit cringe-inducing, but it's clear what his point was: that women in muslim cultures are subjected to terrible things which don't really compare to the problems of sexual inequality in western culture. > Maybe as an old guy don't tell a woman that her experience is wrong. Yes, that's one way in which we differ. You're a supporter of identity politics, one consequence of which is that you believe that the truth of statements depends on who utters them. I am a traditional liberal, who simply continues to follow the tenets of rationalism that were in place before the postmodernist and identity-politics movements took over the minds of most of my generation. I'm sorry, I guess we don't have any common ground here. I agree with pretty much everything Dawkins has ever said. I have no respect for any religious belief in the minds of anyone who has had access to a modern education, and I have no trouble saying Islam is a terrible religion -- you don't have to look further than the treatment of women. There's no need for nuance here -- all religions are childish.
      - croon 6y ago
        And what I'm saying is that someone who has no experience being a woman, or a person of color, can at most try to imagine what it's like depending on their level of empathy, but it's anything but rational to suggest you know better what that experience is. And suggesting me to "look no further than how [they/"islam"] treats women is exactly the problem I was pointing out. Again, I'm also non-religious, but I don't conflate westboro baptist church/mormons/amish with "Christianity". Once again hugely ironic while criticizing identity politics.

croon 6y ago

Yes, I remember when he did that with Christianity. I'm agnostic and I have his old books in my bookcase. He wasn't "criticizing" Islam, he was fearmongering. Then he started cozying up with evangelists as long as they hated "post-modernists" enough. He has (previously) had a lot of good things to say, and at some point he abandoned his ideals in favor of politics, and just became another Jordan Peterson crank.

da39a3ee 6y ago
Yes, I'm a biologist, and I also read all his old books when I was younger. I can see why you might think that he's only interested in politics based on media coverage, but it actually isn't true: I went to listen to him speak in Berkeley 3 years ago, and it was nearly all about the old stuff: gene-level selection, kin selection, etc. Two years later he was due to come again at the invitation of the same radio station, but his invitation was canceled, due to the influence of "progressives". > abandoned his ideals I certainly wouldn't say that about him! What makes you think so? > Then he started cozying up with evangelists as long as they hated "post-modernists" enough. Could you tell me what you're referring to there? I agree he hates post-modernism.
- croon 6y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20190929045043/https:/twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/1178170072537264129 https://web.archive.org/web/20190929045043/https:/twitter.co... https://web.archive.org/web/20190929094120if_/https://twitter.com/saeen90_/status/1178242652468400128 https://web.archive.org/web/20190929094120if_/https://twitte... But I don't really care about his views on biological genders, but what relevant point did he have when writing this message down in the blog post?: https://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/ https://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/ He's become a political agitator, and increasingly rarely a scientist. This is not meant to say "stick to science", but if he wants to be political, I'm going to criticize is politics, because they suck and he does deserve scorn for them. Maybe as an old guy don't tell a woman that her experience is wrong. I don't think that this is a radical "post-modernist" idea.
  - da39a3ee 6y ago
    Thanks for digging out those links. > Pretentious postmodern nonsense is a serious menace in universities... I'm not sure what you expect me to object to there. If you don't think postmodernism has caused serious damage and is a terrible influence on peoples minds in the humanities then we'll have to agree to disagree. > Some event with christians and anti-postmodernists speaking Again, I'm not sure what you think the problem is. Dawkins isn't saying Christians should be deplatformed. His tweet was doubtless intended to promote the anti-postmodernists; you can't scour every retweet for transitive ideological inconsistencies. Well, maybe people do, but I don't think that's a good use of time. > The letter to an imaginary muslim girl Yeah, it's a bit cringe-inducing, but it's clear what his point was: that women in muslim cultures are subjected to terrible things which don't really compare to the problems of sexual inequality in western culture. > Maybe as an old guy don't tell a woman that her experience is wrong. Yes, that's one way in which we differ. You're a supporter of identity politics, one consequence of which is that you believe that the truth of statements depends on who utters them. I am a traditional liberal, who simply continues to follow the tenets of rationalism that were in place before the postmodernist and identity-politics movements took over the minds of most of my generation. I'm sorry, I guess we don't have any common ground here. I agree with pretty much everything Dawkins has ever said. I have no respect for any religious belief in the minds of anyone who has had access to a modern education, and I have no trouble saying Islam is a terrible religion -- you don't have to look further than the treatment of women. There's no need for nuance here -- all religions are childish.
    - croon 6y ago
      And what I'm saying is that someone who has no experience being a woman, or a person of color, can at most try to imagine what it's like depending on their level of empathy, but it's anything but rational to suggest you know better what that experience is. And suggesting me to "look no further than how [they/"islam"] treats women is exactly the problem I was pointing out. Again, I'm also non-religious, but I don't conflate westboro baptist church/mormons/amish with "Christianity". Once again hugely ironic while criticizing identity politics.