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That’s not a monopoly. It’s something to scrutinize but it’s not a monopoly.

grapevan 6y ago
It really depends on market definition to be honest. If one were to define a market for native app distribution services on iOS smartphones, then I think there is a real argument that Apple is a monopolist that is extracting monopoly rents.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  And there is a strong case for defining the market that way, because it represents a discrete set of customers. Approximately none of the people who use the iOS app store also use Google Play, because it doesn't work on their phones. Whereas if you say "the Walmart market for windshield wipers" that isn't a discrete set of customers, because the same people can walk across the street to Target and buy windshield wipers for the same car over there.
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    How are customers discrete? I own both android and iOS devices.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      99% of people don't, and even you have to use the store that corresponds to the device you want to use the app with. If one company actually had a monopoly on windshield wipers for cars and another had a monopoly on windshield wipers for trucks, that doesn't change just because there is somebody who has both a car and a truck. When you need windshield wipers for your car, there is still only one place you could get them.
      - edmundsauto 6y ago
        But doesn't that mean the basis for the argument is heavily in how you define the market? How people define the market feels entirely arbitrary to me -- supporters of the antitrust investigation scope it to "iOS", while opponents scope it to "smartphones". Both are valid, but it's our personal position that drives how we define market. That seems backwards.
foxtr0t 6y ago
Antitrust enforcers care about anticompetitive behavior not monopolies. They certainly should care about rent seeking behavior that Apple is engaged in. Saying something is or is not a monopoly is distracting from what actually matters. It's deflecting.
- jhawk28 6y ago
  Anticompetitive behavior only matters when it is a monopoly.
  - CPLX 6y ago
    This is a common misconception but is not correct. Anti-competitive behavior can be illegal all by itself. Price fixing is one obvious example but there are plenty of others.
    - jmisavage 6y ago
      Correct Apple and several book publishers got in trouble for doing just that years ago in the fight against Amazon.
    - tzs 6y ago
      In addition to most violations of antitrust law being from companies that do not have monopolies, it goes the other way too. You can have an actual monopoly without violating antitrust law. If you got the monopoly without doing anti-competitive behavior, such as by simple having a better product or by getting lucky and having competitors that all made stupid mistakes that sunk them, your monopoly may be legal.
  - foxtr0t 6y ago
    This is a patently false statement from first principles. Anticompetitive behavior to keep a monopoly is illegal, but that is not the only case. Cartels, predatory pricing, and price fixing are all illegal with or without monopolies and are all considered anticompetitive practices.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Apple has a monopoly on iPhone software, and while it's true that users who dislike the App Store can switch to Android, there is an enormous cost to switching phone ecosystems. If you don't like Comcast, you could move to an area with a different ISP, and there's a certain point where you probably would move, if Comcast's service became egregious enough. But I don't usually see this argument when people refer to Comcast as a monopoly, because it's understood that the switching cost is unreasonably high.
- MegaButts 6y ago
  How is switching between Android and iOS remotely comparable to moving where you live? I've switched between iOS and Android before. What's the big deal?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- mythz 6y ago
  > Apple has a monopoly on iPhone software Monopoly's are whether or not a product or service dominates a specific sector, industry or market. A company can't have a monopoly over its own products which by definition would cover most product/service companies. Given iOS market share is about ~25% of the Mobile OS Market, it currently doesn't qualify as a Monopoly although it's currently under EU investigation & Epic lawsuit which may rule differently.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    But isn't iOS software a specific market? iOS might be an Apple product, but "iOS software" is made primarily by third parties. That software is exclusively sold by Apple, but that's exactly what I find anti-competitive! Separately, it's worth noting that iOS has ~60% market share in the United States[1]. It's lower globally, as you pointed out, but I'd argue domestic market-share should be what matters in US-based suits. 1: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta...
treis 6y ago
In every thread someone makes a comment like this. As though a duopoly is somehow meaningfully different than a monopoly.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  And it doesn't even address anything I actually said. It's a deflection at best. The spectrum of corporate misbehavior that needs to be regulated is much broader than "singular monopoly".
- JKCalhoun 6y ago
  Good point. Cable companies and cell companies should be hoisted up next.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Cable (or a wire that transmits data) and mobile internet should be a utility. It makes no sense for multiple fibers to be run to a single home for the sake of competition, nor does it make sense to operate multiple cell towers transmitting the same data, just like it doesn't make sense to run multiple pipes for water and electrical lines for the sake of competition.

It really depends on market definition to be honest. If one were to define a market for native app distribution services on iOS smartphones, then I think there is a real argument that Apple is a monopolist that is extracting monopoly rents.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
And there is a strong case for defining the market that way, because it represents a discrete set of customers. Approximately none of the people who use the iOS app store also use Google Play, because it doesn't work on their phones. Whereas if you say "the Walmart market for windshield wipers" that isn't a discrete set of customers, because the same people can walk across the street to Target and buy windshield wipers for the same car over there.
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  How are customers discrete? I own both android and iOS devices.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    99% of people don't, and even you have to use the store that corresponds to the device you want to use the app with. If one company actually had a monopoly on windshield wipers for cars and another had a monopoly on windshield wipers for trucks, that doesn't change just because there is somebody who has both a car and a truck. When you need windshield wipers for your car, there is still only one place you could get them.
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      But doesn't that mean the basis for the argument is heavily in how you define the market? How people define the market feels entirely arbitrary to me -- supporters of the antitrust investigation scope it to "iOS", while opponents scope it to "smartphones". Both are valid, but it's our personal position that drives how we define market. That seems backwards.

foxtr0t 6y ago

Antitrust enforcers care about anticompetitive behavior not monopolies. They certainly should care about rent seeking behavior that Apple is engaged in. Saying something is or is not a monopoly is distracting from what actually matters. It's deflecting.

jhawk28 6y ago
Anticompetitive behavior only matters when it is a monopoly.
- CPLX 6y ago
  This is a common misconception but is not correct. Anti-competitive behavior can be illegal all by itself. Price fixing is one obvious example but there are plenty of others.
  - jmisavage 6y ago
    Correct Apple and several book publishers got in trouble for doing just that years ago in the fight against Amazon.
  - tzs 6y ago
    In addition to most violations of antitrust law being from companies that do not have monopolies, it goes the other way too. You can have an actual monopoly without violating antitrust law. If you got the monopoly without doing anti-competitive behavior, such as by simple having a better product or by getting lucky and having competitors that all made stupid mistakes that sunk them, your monopoly may be legal.
- foxtr0t 6y ago
  This is a patently false statement from first principles. Anticompetitive behavior to keep a monopoly is illegal, but that is not the only case. Cartels, predatory pricing, and price fixing are all illegal with or without monopolies and are all considered anticompetitive practices.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

Apple has a monopoly on iPhone software, and while it's true that users who dislike the App Store can switch to Android, there is an enormous cost to switching phone ecosystems. If you don't like Comcast, you could move to an area with a different ISP, and there's a certain point where you probably would move, if Comcast's service became egregious enough. But I don't usually see this argument when people refer to Comcast as a monopoly, because it's understood that the switching cost is unreasonably high.

MegaButts 6y ago
How is switching between Android and iOS remotely comparable to moving where you live? I've switched between iOS and Android before. What's the big deal?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mythz 6y ago
> Apple has a monopoly on iPhone software Monopoly's are whether or not a product or service dominates a specific sector, industry or market. A company can't have a monopoly over its own products which by definition would cover most product/service companies. Given iOS market share is about ~25% of the Mobile OS Market, it currently doesn't qualify as a Monopoly although it's currently under EU investigation & Epic lawsuit which may rule differently.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  But isn't iOS software a specific market? iOS might be an Apple product, but "iOS software" is made primarily by third parties. That software is exclusively sold by Apple, but that's exactly what I find anti-competitive! Separately, it's worth noting that iOS has ~60% market share in the United States[1]. It's lower globally, as you pointed out, but I'd argue domestic market-share should be what matters in US-based suits. 1: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta...

treis 6y ago

In every thread someone makes a comment like this. As though a duopoly is somehow meaningfully different than a monopoly.

CydeWeys 6y ago
And it doesn't even address anything I actually said. It's a deflection at best. The spectrum of corporate misbehavior that needs to be regulated is much broader than "singular monopoly".
JKCalhoun 6y ago
Good point. Cable companies and cell companies should be hoisted up next.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Cable (or a wire that transmits data) and mobile internet should be a utility. It makes no sense for multiple fibers to be run to a single home for the sake of competition, nor does it make sense to operate multiple cell towers transmitting the same data, just like it doesn't make sense to run multiple pipes for water and electrical lines for the sake of competition.