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> If you measure the "unemployed" as anybody over 16 years old who isn't earning a living wage... Over 16 years old, a lot of people are at school / university

> If you measure the "unemployed" as anybody over 16 years old who isn't earning a living wage... Over 16 years old, a lot of people are at school / university and likely "funded" by their parents. And those who work in order to study because their parents can't/don't help them, they don't obviously pretend to earn more than 20K... they work simply to survive while they study but when they are graduated, it's another story... Is it all counted as "unemployed"?

maxsilver 6y ago
It should be. For all practical purposes, all university students should always show up as "unemployed" in any statistics, because they are -- and they'll need to earn all of that cash back and then some extra, at some point in their lifetime.
- TonyTrapp 6y ago
  If they are "funded" by their parents - why would they need to earn any of that back? Is that really how it works in the US? It's a matter of course in other countries that parents fund the education of their children.
  - creata 6y ago
    > It's a matter of course in other countries that parents fund the education of their children. In some countries. In others (such as Australia), students take out an interest-free loan from the government, and are expected to pay it back, with or without the help of their parents.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    Are most students funded by their parents? I certainly wasn't, and neither was my wife.
    - bluntfang 6y ago
      You can't forget the HN demographic of upper middle class white men who pay for their children's education. I'd say most young adults entering college have a loan in their name. Cursory research [0] says >Today, roughly 70% of American students end up taking out loans to go to college. The average graduate leaves school with around $30,000 in debt and all told, some 45 million Americans owe $1.6 trillion in student loans — and counting. [0] https://www.marketplace.org/2019/09/30/70-of-college-students-graduate-with-debt-how-did-we-get-here/ https://www.marketplace.org/2019/09/30/70-of-college-student...
      - TonyTrapp 6y ago
        Again that is a very US-centric view. You don't pay 25,000$ a year for attending a university in Europe.
        TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
        The post is titled "America's True Unemployment Rate," so it does make sense in this case to assume were talking about USA. I certainly was in my comment above.
        TonyTrapp 6y ago
        Fair point about your comment, I'm just trying to make my point based on the original generalization I replied to: Part of it is simply wrong even for the US (see siblings), and the rest cannot stand as a generalization for the rest of the world, which "any statistics about students" doesn't account for.
        bluntfang 6y ago
        Thanks, HN is a US-centric website.
- ecmascript 6y ago
  So why should we not include children of all ages and retied people as well then? They are also unemployed. The reason you don't include full time students is the same for children and retired people. They are on their way to becoming productive citizens or have done their part for society.
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    Many full time students are employed throughout college. As someone who attended the state colleges my family could afford, most students had part time employment and many were working full time.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    What about retired people who aren't really retired, they are just drawing on their pension sooner than they'd like, as a desperate alternative to employment money to lengthen their rental runway to homelessness? Or they are drawing on a pension while doing food delivery gigs on the side to top it up to pay for essentials? I'd suggest a useful definition of "unemployed" for the purpose of evaluating if there's a problem is: "needs a job but can't get one". That covers retired-but-not-really people, and students who need to work for a living at the same time but are between jobs. But not children, or students with enough to live on from their parents.
- albntomat0 6y ago
  Your definition differs from the one used in the article "A person who is looking for a full-time job that pays a living wage — but who can't find one — is unemployed" I expect there's value in the statistic of everyone who lacks a full time job (unemployment in the sense you mention), but a student who has reasonable prospects of employment in X years, post graduation, is significantly different than someone failing to find an adequate job right now.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  > For all practical purposes, all university students should always show up as "unemployed" in any statistics, because they are That’s funny because I worked the entirety of my time as an undergrad, as did many of my peers.
  - maxsilver 6y ago
    Sorry, I worked through my entire undergrad as well. I meant we should never exclude young adults from unemployment metrics. If they aren't employed at a living wage, they aren't employed, being a student should not "bypass" that metric in any way.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Go screw yourself. I worked 20/30+ hours a week for rent and to eat.
newacct583 6y ago
> a lot of people are at school / university and likely "funded" by their parents That's true only for kids of upper middle class families, and thus a vanishing component for a whole-workforce number like this. Kids of families whose parents bring home something close to the median household income ($70k or so) are not being "funded" at school in any meaningful way, certainly not at a number comparable to employment.
dalbasal 6y ago
Generically, depends on what you want to know. No measure tells you everything, and measures that try obfuscate everything. Is it useful to know what portion of the population is working, what percentage of 16-22 yos are working? An increase in employment rate among women might mean more good jobs are available. It might mean that times are tough and women (or men) with small children need to work more. It might mean people can't afford to retire, or that 60+ people are having trouble finding a job, etc. IMO the problem is an obsession with creating a measure that maps perfectly to an imprecise term. "Unemployment," in the abstract, is not a perfectly defined thing. The measure should not define the thing. Measures should be used to understand the thing.
albntomat0 6y ago
I agree with you, with different reasoning. The number of people without adequate employment (as in, they'd take a full time living wage job over their current situation) is a useful means of understanding the economic situation. Counting a student who has reasonable expectations of living wage employment, post graduation, distorts that measure.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> Is it all counted as "unemployed"? Well are they employed by anyone? No. So they're unemployed. It's perfectly valid to be unemployed while studying... but you're still unemployed.
- gen3 6y ago
  “Unemployed: People who are involuntarily out of work considered as a group.” I think it’s misleading to classify these people as unemployed, since many of them choose to not work. If they wouldn’t have had a job anyways, it skews the statistic. https://www.wordnik.com/words/unemployed https://www.wordnik.com/words/unemployed
- criddell 6y ago
  That makes it a less useful statistic for talking about problems around unemployment. I think that's why the BLS has so many different measures of unemployment. If I had enough money in the bank to live the rest of my life comfortably, there's no way I'd be employed.
onion2k 6y ago
Over 16 years old, a lot of people are at school / university.. This is especially important to note given that unemployment skews towards younger people.
CamelCaseName 6y ago
Students attending school are classified as "not in the labor force" because they are not available for work. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm#ui https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm#ui
- vonmoltke 6y ago
  Eligibility for UI is not related to the BLS classification of "unemployed": https://www.bls.gov/cps/definitions.htm#unemployed https://www.bls.gov/cps/definitions.htm#unemployed A college student may be considered unemployed if it is actively looking for a job, but does not have one. Similarly, it may be considered employed if it does have a job.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

maxsilver 6y ago

It should be. For all practical purposes, all university students should always show up as "unemployed" in any statistics, because they are -- and they'll need to earn all of that cash back and then some extra, at some point in their lifetime.

TonyTrapp 6y ago
If they are "funded" by their parents - why would they need to earn any of that back? Is that really how it works in the US? It's a matter of course in other countries that parents fund the education of their children.
- creata 6y ago
  > It's a matter of course in other countries that parents fund the education of their children. In some countries. In others (such as Australia), students take out an interest-free loan from the government, and are expected to pay it back, with or without the help of their parents.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Are most students funded by their parents? I certainly wasn't, and neither was my wife.
  - bluntfang 6y ago
    You can't forget the HN demographic of upper middle class white men who pay for their children's education. I'd say most young adults entering college have a loan in their name. Cursory research [0] says >Today, roughly 70% of American students end up taking out loans to go to college. The average graduate leaves school with around $30,000 in debt and all told, some 45 million Americans owe $1.6 trillion in student loans — and counting. [0] https://www.marketplace.org/2019/09/30/70-of-college-students-graduate-with-debt-how-did-we-get-here/ https://www.marketplace.org/2019/09/30/70-of-college-student...
    - TonyTrapp 6y ago
      Again that is a very US-centric view. You don't pay 25,000$ a year for attending a university in Europe.
      - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
        The post is titled "America's True Unemployment Rate," so it does make sense in this case to assume were talking about USA. I certainly was in my comment above.
        TonyTrapp 6y ago
        Fair point about your comment, I'm just trying to make my point based on the original generalization I replied to: Part of it is simply wrong even for the US (see siblings), and the rest cannot stand as a generalization for the rest of the world, which "any statistics about students" doesn't account for.
      - bluntfang 6y ago
        Thanks, HN is a US-centric website.
ecmascript 6y ago
So why should we not include children of all ages and retied people as well then? They are also unemployed. The reason you don't include full time students is the same for children and retired people. They are on their way to becoming productive citizens or have done their part for society.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  Many full time students are employed throughout college. As someone who attended the state colleges my family could afford, most students had part time employment and many were working full time.
- jlokier 6y ago
  What about retired people who aren't really retired, they are just drawing on their pension sooner than they'd like, as a desperate alternative to employment money to lengthen their rental runway to homelessness? Or they are drawing on a pension while doing food delivery gigs on the side to top it up to pay for essentials? I'd suggest a useful definition of "unemployed" for the purpose of evaluating if there's a problem is: "needs a job but can't get one". That covers retired-but-not-really people, and students who need to work for a living at the same time but are between jobs. But not children, or students with enough to live on from their parents.
albntomat0 6y ago
Your definition differs from the one used in the article "A person who is looking for a full-time job that pays a living wage — but who can't find one — is unemployed" I expect there's value in the statistic of everyone who lacks a full time job (unemployment in the sense you mention), but a student who has reasonable prospects of employment in X years, post graduation, is significantly different than someone failing to find an adequate job right now.
claudeganon 6y ago
> For all practical purposes, all university students should always show up as "unemployed" in any statistics, because they are That’s funny because I worked the entirety of my time as an undergrad, as did many of my peers.
- maxsilver 6y ago
  Sorry, I worked through my entire undergrad as well. I meant we should never exclude young adults from unemployment metrics. If they aren't employed at a living wage, they aren't employed, being a student should not "bypass" that metric in any way.
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
Go screw yourself. I worked 20/30+ hours a week for rent and to eat.

newacct583 6y ago

> a lot of people are at school / university and likely "funded" by their parents That's true only for kids of upper middle class families, and thus a vanishing component for a whole-workforce number like this. Kids of families whose parents bring home something close to the median household income ($70k or so) are not being "funded" at school in any meaningful way, certainly not at a number comparable to employment.

dalbasal 6y ago

Generically, depends on what you want to know. No measure tells you everything, and measures that try obfuscate everything. Is it useful to know what portion of the population is working, what percentage of 16-22 yos are working? An increase in employment rate among women might mean more good jobs are available. It might mean that times are tough and women (or men) with small children need to work more. It might mean people can't afford to retire, or that 60+ people are having trouble finding a job, etc. IMO the problem is an obsession with creating a measure that maps perfectly to an imprecise term. "Unemployment," in the abstract, is not a perfectly defined thing. The measure should not define the thing. Measures should be used to understand the thing.

albntomat0 6y ago

I agree with you, with different reasoning. The number of people without adequate employment (as in, they'd take a full time living wage job over their current situation) is a useful means of understanding the economic situation. Counting a student who has reasonable expectations of living wage employment, post graduation, distorts that measure.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> Is it all counted as "unemployed"? Well are they employed by anyone? No. So they're unemployed. It's perfectly valid to be unemployed while studying... but you're still unemployed.

gen3 6y ago
“Unemployed: People who are involuntarily out of work considered as a group.” I think it’s misleading to classify these people as unemployed, since many of them choose to not work. If they wouldn’t have had a job anyways, it skews the statistic. https://www.wordnik.com/words/unemployed https://www.wordnik.com/words/unemployed
criddell 6y ago
That makes it a less useful statistic for talking about problems around unemployment. I think that's why the BLS has so many different measures of unemployment. If I had enough money in the bank to live the rest of my life comfortably, there's no way I'd be employed.

onion2k 6y ago

Over 16 years old, a lot of people are at school / university.. This is especially important to note given that unemployment skews towards younger people.

CamelCaseName 6y ago

Students attending school are classified as "not in the labor force" because they are not available for work. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm#ui https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm#ui

vonmoltke 6y ago
Eligibility for UI is not related to the BLS classification of "unemployed": https://www.bls.gov/cps/definitions.htm#unemployed https://www.bls.gov/cps/definitions.htm#unemployed A college student may be considered unemployed if it is actively looking for a job, but does not have one. Similarly, it may be considered employed if it does have a job.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]