3 ms·

Same happens to Boeing too.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
Except Boeing will be bailed out eternally since it's the US's only civil aircraft manufacturer and has lots of defense contracts.
- Cullinet 6y ago
  Mike Milken's first junk bond pitch was a case study of the corruption at Lockheed in the 70s, and how much he made buying their "fallen angel" debt, secure on his knowledge of congressional forgiveness. The enabler of present day Boeing is the market has long since made implicit guarantees part of their overt modeling and client analysis. The sickly results include a management insulated from even catastrophic mistakes.
- bryanlarsen 6y ago
  The bailout can and should be after they declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Save the factories and the jobs, but there is no need to bail out the shareholders or bondholders.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Letting Bieing get to chapter 11 means letting Airbus eat their lunches and the US would never let that happen.
    - bryanlarsen 6y ago
      Why? Chapter 11 doesn't mean they stop making or selling planes. The biggest problem would be uncertainty, and that can be dealt with by announcing the intention of bailout immediately after the chapter 11 announcement. For example GM went through chapter 11 in 2009. This helped their sales rather than hurt it.
      - Cullinet 6y ago
        Neither should Chapter 7 mean discontinuity for operations. Pre-packing can be as easily applied to Ch. 7 as 12, if the insolvency court agrees. But there's no management continuity or parachute in Chapter 7. I nearly added union agreementd to the sacrifices of Ch. 7, but I'm really not sure if you can be so cavalier with well written agreements like union concessions made in order to enable management to work thru difficulties. At least instinctively I believe that creates a equitable interest. Which makes me wonder if working out the union position in Chapter 7 wouldn't put the necessary fire under complacent managers.
Cullinet 6y ago
Difference between the 777 and 787 programs : for 787 management was in a tower in Chicago not looking over the factory floor. Obviously the distributed manufacturing introduced with the 777 meant it became possible to argue that the ideal management perch is virtual. But this was a profound separation from tradition and I sold my shares on learning of the new HQ. The problem is that real engineering often absorbs "the fluffy stuff" in hardware. Server composition with independent subsystems accessible over the network is such a compression of OS services in controllers. This is when the value added IP gets recaptured, particularly in standards dependant technology which enables you to play snakes and ladders across the ecosystem board. Why is the IP element to close only in 2025? Without looking, I suspect that Intel has booked some very high goodwill and other intangible values on the NAND IP that realistically are wishful thinking about that fluffy stuff.
- coredog64 6y ago
  Boeing HQ was across the street from Boeing Field while the 777 was engineered and built in Everett. There’s a huge engineering building in Everett that was nicknamed the “Taj Mullaley”, after Alan Mullaley, who ran the 777 project (and later Ford Motor Company).

Except Boeing will be bailed out eternally since it's the US's only civil aircraft manufacturer and has lots of defense contracts.

Cullinet 6y ago
Mike Milken's first junk bond pitch was a case study of the corruption at Lockheed in the 70s, and how much he made buying their "fallen angel" debt, secure on his knowledge of congressional forgiveness. The enabler of present day Boeing is the market has long since made implicit guarantees part of their overt modeling and client analysis. The sickly results include a management insulated from even catastrophic mistakes.
bryanlarsen 6y ago
The bailout can and should be after they declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Save the factories and the jobs, but there is no need to bail out the shareholders or bondholders.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Letting Bieing get to chapter 11 means letting Airbus eat their lunches and the US would never let that happen.
  - bryanlarsen 6y ago
    Why? Chapter 11 doesn't mean they stop making or selling planes. The biggest problem would be uncertainty, and that can be dealt with by announcing the intention of bailout immediately after the chapter 11 announcement. For example GM went through chapter 11 in 2009. This helped their sales rather than hurt it.
    - Cullinet 6y ago
      Neither should Chapter 7 mean discontinuity for operations. Pre-packing can be as easily applied to Ch. 7 as 12, if the insolvency court agrees. But there's no management continuity or parachute in Chapter 7. I nearly added union agreementd to the sacrifices of Ch. 7, but I'm really not sure if you can be so cavalier with well written agreements like union concessions made in order to enable management to work thru difficulties. At least instinctively I believe that creates a equitable interest. Which makes me wonder if working out the union position in Chapter 7 wouldn't put the necessary fire under complacent managers.

Cullinet 6y ago

Difference between the 777 and 787 programs : for 787 management was in a tower in Chicago not looking over the factory floor. Obviously the distributed manufacturing introduced with the 777 meant it became possible to argue that the ideal management perch is virtual. But this was a profound separation from tradition and I sold my shares on learning of the new HQ. The problem is that real engineering often absorbs "the fluffy stuff" in hardware. Server composition with independent subsystems accessible over the network is such a compression of OS services in controllers. This is when the value added IP gets recaptured, particularly in standards dependant technology which enables you to play snakes and ladders across the ecosystem board. Why is the IP element to close only in 2025? Without looking, I suspect that Intel has booked some very high goodwill and other intangible values on the NAND IP that realistically are wishful thinking about that fluffy stuff.

coredog64 6y ago
Boeing HQ was across the street from Boeing Field while the 777 was engineered and built in Everett. There’s a huge engineering building in Everett that was nicknamed the “Taj Mullaley”, after Alan Mullaley, who ran the 777 project (and later Ford Motor Company).