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80% if of the causalities of the German army was in East. But I think people sometimes take it to far, including you. If you look at the amount of material, te

by nickik 6y ago

80% if of the causalities of the German army was in East. But I think people sometimes take it to far, including you. If you look at the amount of material, technology, and cost the German had to spend on the air war, air defense, u-boat war and fighting on a different continent. This type of fighting doesn't kill as many people but its very important. Without the Western Allied efforts Soviet Union had basically no way to effect German economy at all. And one of the single most important points that is often ignored is the economic blockade of Germany that started in 1939. This was a massive issue for Germany. Overall is far, far more then 20% any way you measure it other then casualties. And that is without even mentioning that literally from the moment the German invasion of the Soviet Union started Britain was sending them important war material and eventually the Soviets received massive amounts from Western allies that massively helped them to actually win the war. Britain even sent ships full of the most advanced fighter aircraft that were planned for the defense of Singapore, poor choice there Britain. > People assume Nagasaki and Hiroshima convinced Japan to surrender, but it was actually the (surprise) Russian declaration of war... This is often claimed but its simply false. Japan hoped the Soviets could help them make a deal and once they declared war, Japan understood that there was no deal to be had. What Soviet joining of the war did was to convince the last few people in the war part that conditional surrender was not possible. It was the US nukes that convinced them that surrender was inevitable and in response to the nukes the emperor formally asked by the war council to give his opinion. I'm all for questioning national myths, but many people are simply willing to believe anything as long as it goes against the national myth because they are so sick of hearing. Edit: And I'm European not American, this is just my study of WW2 history

nix23 6y ago
>It was the US nukes that convinced them that surrender was inevitable That is still a huge discussion in Historian Circles and NOT a Fact. https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/education/008/expertclips/010 https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/education/008/expertclips/01...
- nickik 6y ago
  Japan was already so clearly beaten, its only in the fantasy-land where some army officers still held on to the 'we can continue to fight' but that would change if the Soviet Union joined the war. However, many of those people then didn't actually follow threw with this, as even after Soviet Union joined some in the war council still didn't want to surrender. What actually changed the situation in the war council was Hirohito coming out with a clear message, and he did not want to see Japan wiped out. Even then, some in the war council were still against surrender but they followed orders from the Emperor. The people who believe nuclear weapons had nothing to do with the surrender always underestimate or ignore the opinion of the Emperor and simply put it as an 'excuse' rather then his actual opinion. His decision to come out with a clear opinion, against tradition, was not because the Soviets rolled up some Japanese armies in a far away land but rather what was happening to his subjects. That makes way more sense. If you want to call it an 'excuse' then that fine also, but even so, a war its over then the other side admits its over. The war had been military decided for years, if it took nukes to give them an 'excuse' and allowed the emperor to make a statement then that is still the effect of that weapon.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- opo 6y ago
  From the transcript in your link: >…The Soviet Union’s declaration of war, on the other hand, fundamentally altered the strategic situation. Adding another great power to the war created insoluble military problems for Japan’s leaders. It might be possible to fight against one great power attacking from one direction, but anyone could see that Japan couldn’t defend against two great powers attacking from two different directions at once. Trying to call the Soviet Union at the end of WW II, a great power that could attack from a different direction is bizarre. The few navy vessels that the USSR had that would be useful in an amphibious landing were ones given to it by the USA as part of Project Hula. The Soviet Union was not a threat to Japan at the end of WW II. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hula Compare that to what the rest of the allies were planning on: >...Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyūshū, was to begin on "X-Day", which was scheduled for 1 November 1945. The combined Allied naval armada would have been the largest ever assembled, including 42 aircraft carriers, 24 battleships, and 400 destroyers and destroyer escorts. Fourteen U.S. "division-equivalents" (13 divisions and two regimental combat teams)[28] were scheduled to take part in the initial landings. and if that armada wasn't enough: >...Ken Nichols, the District Engineer of the Manhattan Engineer District, wrote that at the beginning of August 1945, "[p]lanning for the invasion of the main Japanese home islands had reached its final stages, and if the landings actually took place, we might supply about fifteen atomic bombs to support the troops. The invasion of Honshu would have been even more devastating: >…Operation Coronet, the invasion of Honshu at the Kantō Plain south of the capital, was to begin on "Y-Day", which was tentatively scheduled for 1 March 1946.[33] Coronet would have been even larger than Olympic, with up to 40 divisions earmarked for both the initial landing and follow-up.[34] (The Overlord invasion of Normandy, by comparison, deployed 12 divisions in the initial landings.) In the initial stage, the First Army would have invaded at Kujūkuri Beach, on the Bōsō Peninsula, while Eighth Army invaded at Hiratsuka, on Sagami Bay.[35] Later, a follow-up force of up to 12 additional divisions of the Tenth Army and British Commonwealth Corps would be landed as reinforcements.[36] The Allied forces would then have driven north and inland, meeting at Tokyo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall There is really no comparison.

by nickik 6y ago

nix23 6y ago

>It was the US nukes that convinced them that surrender was inevitable That is still a huge discussion in Historian Circles and NOT a Fact. https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/education/008/expertclips/010 https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/education/008/expertclips/01...

nickik 6y ago
Japan was already so clearly beaten, its only in the fantasy-land where some army officers still held on to the 'we can continue to fight' but that would change if the Soviet Union joined the war. However, many of those people then didn't actually follow threw with this, as even after Soviet Union joined some in the war council still didn't want to surrender. What actually changed the situation in the war council was Hirohito coming out with a clear message, and he did not want to see Japan wiped out. Even then, some in the war council were still against surrender but they followed orders from the Emperor. The people who believe nuclear weapons had nothing to do with the surrender always underestimate or ignore the opinion of the Emperor and simply put it as an 'excuse' rather then his actual opinion. His decision to come out with a clear opinion, against tradition, was not because the Soviets rolled up some Japanese armies in a far away land but rather what was happening to his subjects. That makes way more sense. If you want to call it an 'excuse' then that fine also, but even so, a war its over then the other side admits its over. The war had been military decided for years, if it took nukes to give them an 'excuse' and allowed the emperor to make a statement then that is still the effect of that weapon.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
opo 6y ago
From the transcript in your link: >…The Soviet Union’s declaration of war, on the other hand, fundamentally altered the strategic situation. Adding another great power to the war created insoluble military problems for Japan’s leaders. It might be possible to fight against one great power attacking from one direction, but anyone could see that Japan couldn’t defend against two great powers attacking from two different directions at once. Trying to call the Soviet Union at the end of WW II, a great power that could attack from a different direction is bizarre. The few navy vessels that the USSR had that would be useful in an amphibious landing were ones given to it by the USA as part of Project Hula. The Soviet Union was not a threat to Japan at the end of WW II. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hula Compare that to what the rest of the allies were planning on: >...Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyūshū, was to begin on "X-Day", which was scheduled for 1 November 1945. The combined Allied naval armada would have been the largest ever assembled, including 42 aircraft carriers, 24 battleships, and 400 destroyers and destroyer escorts. Fourteen U.S. "division-equivalents" (13 divisions and two regimental combat teams)[28] were scheduled to take part in the initial landings. and if that armada wasn't enough: >...Ken Nichols, the District Engineer of the Manhattan Engineer District, wrote that at the beginning of August 1945, "[p]lanning for the invasion of the main Japanese home islands had reached its final stages, and if the landings actually took place, we might supply about fifteen atomic bombs to support the troops. The invasion of Honshu would have been even more devastating: >…Operation Coronet, the invasion of Honshu at the Kantō Plain south of the capital, was to begin on "Y-Day", which was tentatively scheduled for 1 March 1946.[33] Coronet would have been even larger than Olympic, with up to 40 divisions earmarked for both the initial landing and follow-up.[34] (The Overlord invasion of Normandy, by comparison, deployed 12 divisions in the initial landings.) In the initial stage, the First Army would have invaded at Kujūkuri Beach, on the Bōsō Peninsula, while Eighth Army invaded at Hiratsuka, on Sagami Bay.[35] Later, a follow-up force of up to 12 additional divisions of the Tenth Army and British Commonwealth Corps would be landed as reinforcements.[36] The Allied forces would then have driven north and inland, meeting at Tokyo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall There is really no comparison.