6 ms·

How much is citizenship?

by lprd 6y ago

viraptor 6y ago
You can't really buy the citizenship. (At least officially) You still have to live there for years. But the residency starts at $3M NZ if you're a recurring visitor https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/investor-visa https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/inve...
- thespoonbends 6y ago
  I think the point is that there are unofficial routes: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-gave-peter-thiel-citizenship-after-spending-just-12-days-there https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-ga...
  - techie128 6y ago
    They're very much official routes. The US also has 'private bills' in which Congress can make anybody, even criminals and other individuals ineligible under the current INA, into US citizens. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-02-04-mn-1209-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-02-04-mn-1209-s...
  - gnat 6y ago
    After the epic shitstorm that Thiel's citizenship caused, I don't see any appetite for further dispensations of citizenship by Ministers.
    - 1234fdsazxcv 6y ago
      Ha! That's not true at all. Having rich Americans come is actually a public policy option that was openly debated in the papers during the election. Basically, New Zealand has turned into a real estate operation that sells milk on the side. Despite record highs all parties have made it their explicit goal to keep housing prices high. Having rich people come buy real estate is really considered a great idea. I'm shocked but that's the way it works here.
      - versteegen 6y ago
        Don't quite agree. The Immigration Minister can give out exceptions to the citizenship process but the point is they're not going to be giving out any more exceptions as extreme as the one they gave to Thiel, because noone was happy the Minister did that. That's different from the above-board process for easing the path to permanent residency/citizenship with investment money, (residency visas for investors and entrepreneurs) which is considered a good idea. Also how can you claim "all parties" want to keep selling real estate to rich foreigners when Labour outlawed it last term, and made a very big fuss about doing so? But other parties clearly want to be in that business.
      - gnat 6y ago
        As @versteegen said, Thiel came in under Ministerial dispensation, not the usual visa program which has space for investors and skilled migrants. I do largely agree with your real estate operation zinger. Since Europeans came here, it has always been thus. The New Zealand Company was set up as a flip scheme -- buy land from Māori at low price and sell high to settlers. The New Zealand Wars were fought to free up land for more such enterprise. If you're curious about the New Zealand Company, I can recommend Patricia Burns's "Fatal Success: a History of the New Zealand Company". (And, in general for NZ history, the "Black Sheep" podcast) The Detail had a really good piece on the current state of NZ immigration, fwiw: <https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300122700/the-detail-immigration-a-political-cold-potato-in-the-age-of-covid19 https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300122700/the-de...> I believe one of their interviewees made the point that previous governments have used immigration to prop up/grow the economy. I can see why: it's one of the few straightforward levers they have. (Which policy settings will create a Google in NZ? Dunno. Which policy settings create more domestic commerce and thus boost GDP? Easy!)
- anon9001 6y ago
  So an American with $2M to invest and a desire to live in NZ can simply invest in equities, bonds, and real estate and become a citizen in 4 years? And once you're a citizen, you enjoy unlimited social and health benefits indefinitely? Can someone from NZ tell me why this shouldn't be my retirement plan?
  - zdkl 6y ago
    Not from NZ, but consider this: do you want to San Francisco-ize (multiply living costs, entrench a landlord caste & create weird incentives for local politics) the place? Because lots of foreign money simply walking into a heretofore sedate local real estate and business ecosystem is how you do that. Cf. Toronto, SF, Paris, London, Munich &c
    - mkl 6y ago
      > Not from NZ [...] sedate local real estate Clearly! House prices here are very high already. See e.g. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-housing-most-unaffordable-in-the-world-the-economist.html https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-hou..., https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/83750475/nz-tops-imfs-housing-unaffordability-list https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/83750475/nz-tops-imfs...
      - Open-Sourcery 6y ago
        And I am a little hopeful (but doubtful) that might be starting to change. Massive numbers of houses have been consented to be built (especially in the last few years). But just building more probably won't be a permanent solution. https://www.stats.govt.nz/topics/housing https://www.stats.govt.nz/topics/housing https://www.hud.govt.nz/news-and-resources/statistics-and-research/housing-affordability-measure-ham/experimental-housing-affordability-index/ https://www.hud.govt.nz/news-and-resources/statistics-and-re... https://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/index.htm https://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/index.htm
    - sorenbouma 6y ago
      Auckland already has one of the highest house price:median income ratios in the world.
- versteegen 6y ago
  Check out the new Global Impact Visa. It's a really unique visa for startup founders who get into an incubator-like programme. You don't need any money yourself (just the ability to attract investment) and it lets you spend lots of time outside the country but still get permanent residency in 30 months. https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/global-impact-visa https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/glob...
slowmotiony 6y ago
Not NZ but in Malta it costs around 1-1.5mln eur. I imagine it could be more expensive than NZ as Malta's passport grants you free travel and work possibility across entire EU. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/dealbook/malta-offers-citizenship-and-all-its-perks-for-a-price.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/dealbook/malta-o...
- erfgh 6y ago
  Malta has cancelled this programme because it was breeding ground for corruption.
  - SiempreViernes 6y ago
    They got pressured by the EU to cancel it, the corruption concern is not exactly new (or surprising).
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  Just to add some colour... You don't PAY 1m, you INVEST 1m in a Maltese business and they GIVE you the citizenship as you still own whatever you invested in. Find a nice hotel you can buy a share of and you're laughing...
- newyankee 6y ago
  NZ starts at 3 m $ up to 10 m $ +. More $ gives more points. This is NZ $.
- thesimon 6y ago
  Portugal is cheaper, just buy real estate for 350-500k€ and you'll get residency, just 5 years later you can get citizenship. There are even some service that'll offer to "loan" you a property by buying at back for the price you bought it for after you got your residency. Unsurprisingly, house prices in Lisbon and Porto have become unaffordable for the locals.

How much is citizenship?

by lprd 6y ago

How much is citizenship?

You can't really buy the citizenship. (At least officially) You still have to live there for years. But the residency starts at $3M NZ if you're a recurring visitor https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/investor-visa https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/inve...

thespoonbends 6y ago
I think the point is that there are unofficial routes: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-gave-peter-thiel-citizenship-after-spending-just-12-days-there https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-ga...
- techie128 6y ago
  They're very much official routes. The US also has 'private bills' in which Congress can make anybody, even criminals and other individuals ineligible under the current INA, into US citizens. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-02-04-mn-1209-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-02-04-mn-1209-s...
- gnat 6y ago
  After the epic shitstorm that Thiel's citizenship caused, I don't see any appetite for further dispensations of citizenship by Ministers.
  - 1234fdsazxcv 6y ago
    Ha! That's not true at all. Having rich Americans come is actually a public policy option that was openly debated in the papers during the election. Basically, New Zealand has turned into a real estate operation that sells milk on the side. Despite record highs all parties have made it their explicit goal to keep housing prices high. Having rich people come buy real estate is really considered a great idea. I'm shocked but that's the way it works here.
    - versteegen 6y ago
      Don't quite agree. The Immigration Minister can give out exceptions to the citizenship process but the point is they're not going to be giving out any more exceptions as extreme as the one they gave to Thiel, because noone was happy the Minister did that. That's different from the above-board process for easing the path to permanent residency/citizenship with investment money, (residency visas for investors and entrepreneurs) which is considered a good idea. Also how can you claim "all parties" want to keep selling real estate to rich foreigners when Labour outlawed it last term, and made a very big fuss about doing so? But other parties clearly want to be in that business.
    - gnat 6y ago
      As @versteegen said, Thiel came in under Ministerial dispensation, not the usual visa program which has space for investors and skilled migrants. I do largely agree with your real estate operation zinger. Since Europeans came here, it has always been thus. The New Zealand Company was set up as a flip scheme -- buy land from Māori at low price and sell high to settlers. The New Zealand Wars were fought to free up land for more such enterprise. If you're curious about the New Zealand Company, I can recommend Patricia Burns's "Fatal Success: a History of the New Zealand Company". (And, in general for NZ history, the "Black Sheep" podcast) The Detail had a really good piece on the current state of NZ immigration, fwiw: <https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300122700/the-detail-immigration-a-political-cold-potato-in-the-age-of-covid19 https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300122700/the-de...> I believe one of their interviewees made the point that previous governments have used immigration to prop up/grow the economy. I can see why: it's one of the few straightforward levers they have. (Which policy settings will create a Google in NZ? Dunno. Which policy settings create more domestic commerce and thus boost GDP? Easy!)
anon9001 6y ago
So an American with $2M to invest and a desire to live in NZ can simply invest in equities, bonds, and real estate and become a citizen in 4 years? And once you're a citizen, you enjoy unlimited social and health benefits indefinitely? Can someone from NZ tell me why this shouldn't be my retirement plan?
- zdkl 6y ago
  Not from NZ, but consider this: do you want to San Francisco-ize (multiply living costs, entrench a landlord caste & create weird incentives for local politics) the place? Because lots of foreign money simply walking into a heretofore sedate local real estate and business ecosystem is how you do that. Cf. Toronto, SF, Paris, London, Munich &c
  - mkl 6y ago
    > Not from NZ [...] sedate local real estate Clearly! House prices here are very high already. See e.g. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-housing-most-unaffordable-in-the-world-the-economist.html https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-hou..., https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/83750475/nz-tops-imfs-housing-unaffordability-list https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/83750475/nz-tops-imfs...
    - Open-Sourcery 6y ago
      And I am a little hopeful (but doubtful) that might be starting to change. Massive numbers of houses have been consented to be built (especially in the last few years). But just building more probably won't be a permanent solution. https://www.stats.govt.nz/topics/housing https://www.stats.govt.nz/topics/housing https://www.hud.govt.nz/news-and-resources/statistics-and-research/housing-affordability-measure-ham/experimental-housing-affordability-index/ https://www.hud.govt.nz/news-and-resources/statistics-and-re... https://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/index.htm https://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/index.htm
  - sorenbouma 6y ago
    Auckland already has one of the highest house price:median income ratios in the world.
versteegen 6y ago
Check out the new Global Impact Visa. It's a really unique visa for startup founders who get into an incubator-like programme. You don't need any money yourself (just the ability to attract investment) and it lets you spend lots of time outside the country but still get permanent residency in 30 months. https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/global-impact-visa https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/glob...

slowmotiony 6y ago

Not NZ but in Malta it costs around 1-1.5mln eur. I imagine it could be more expensive than NZ as Malta's passport grants you free travel and work possibility across entire EU. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/dealbook/malta-offers-citizenship-and-all-its-perks-for-a-price.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/dealbook/malta-o...

erfgh 6y ago
Malta has cancelled this programme because it was breeding ground for corruption.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  They got pressured by the EU to cancel it, the corruption concern is not exactly new (or surprising).
LatteLazy 6y ago
Just to add some colour... You don't PAY 1m, you INVEST 1m in a Maltese business and they GIVE you the citizenship as you still own whatever you invested in. Find a nice hotel you can buy a share of and you're laughing...
newyankee 6y ago
NZ starts at 3 m $ up to 10 m $ +. More $ gives more points. This is NZ $.
thesimon 6y ago
Portugal is cheaper, just buy real estate for 350-500k€ and you'll get residency, just 5 years later you can get citizenship. There are even some service that'll offer to "loan" you a property by buying at back for the price you bought it for after you got your residency. Unsurprisingly, house prices in Lisbon and Porto have become unaffordable for the locals.