9 ms·

NZ is a safe haven for the rich to buy citizenship,property in case of a catastrophe in their home countries.

• lprd 6y ago
  How much is citizenship?
  • viraptor 6y ago
    You can't really buy the citizenship. (At least officially) You still have to live there for years. But the residency starts at $3M NZ if you're a recurring visitor https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/investor-visa https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/inve...
    • thespoonbends 6y ago
      I think the point is that there are unofficial routes: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-gave-peter-thiel-citizenship-after-spending-just-12-days-there https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-ga...
      • techie128 6y ago
        They're very much official routes. The US also has 'private bills' in which Congress can make anybody, even criminals and other individuals ineligible under the current INA, into US citizens. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-02-04-mn-1209-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-02-04-mn-1209-s...
      • gnat 6y ago
        After the epic shitstorm that Thiel's citizenship caused, I don't see any appetite for further dispensations of citizenship by Ministers.
        • 1234fdsazxcv 6y ago
          Ha! That's not true at all. Having rich Americans come is actually a public policy option that was openly debated in the papers during the election. Basically, New Zealand has turned into a real estate operation that sells milk on the side. Despite record highs all parties have made it their explicit goal to keep housing prices high. Having rich people come buy real estate is really considered a great idea. I'm shocked but that's the way it works here.
          • versteegen 6y ago
            Don't quite agree. The Immigration Minister can give out exceptions to the citizenship process but the point is they're not going to be giving out any more exceptions as extreme as the one they gave to Thiel, because noone was happy the Minister did that. That's different from the above-board process for easing the path to permanent residency/citizenship with investment money, (residency visas for investors and entrepreneurs) which is considered a good idea. Also how can you claim "all parties" want to keep selling real estate to rich foreigners when Labour outlawed it last term, and made a very big fuss about doing so? But other parties clearly want to be in that business.
          • gnat 6y ago
            As @versteegen said, Thiel came in under Ministerial dispensation, not the usual visa program which has space for investors and skilled migrants. I do largely agree with your real estate operation zinger. Since Europeans came here, it has always been thus. The New Zealand Company was set up as a flip scheme -- buy land from Māori at low price and sell high to settlers. The New Zealand Wars were fought to free up land for more such enterprise. If you're curious about the New Zealand Company, I can recommend Patricia Burns's "Fatal Success: a History of the New Zealand Company". (And, in general for NZ history, the "Black Sheep" podcast) The Detail had a really good piece on the current state of NZ immigration, fwiw: <https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300122700/the-detail-immigration-a-political-cold-potato-in-the-age-of-covid19 https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300122700/the-de...> I believe one of their interviewees made the point that previous governments have used immigration to prop up/grow the economy. I can see why: it's one of the few straightforward levers they have. (Which policy settings will create a Google in NZ? Dunno. Which policy settings create more domestic commerce and thus boost GDP? Easy!)
    • anon9001 6y ago
      So an American with $2M to invest and a desire to live in NZ can simply invest in equities, bonds, and real estate and become a citizen in 4 years? And once you're a citizen, you enjoy unlimited social and health benefits indefinitely? Can someone from NZ tell me why this shouldn't be my retirement plan?
      • zdkl 6y ago
        Not from NZ, but consider this: do you want to San Francisco-ize (multiply living costs, entrench a landlord caste & create weird incentives for local politics) the place? Because lots of foreign money simply walking into a heretofore sedate local real estate and business ecosystem is how you do that. Cf. Toronto, SF, Paris, London, Munich &c
        • mkl 6y ago
          > Not from NZ [...] sedate local real estate Clearly! House prices here are very high already. See e.g. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-housing-most-unaffordable-in-the-world-the-economist.html https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-hou..., https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/83750475/nz-tops-imfs-housing-unaffordability-list https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/83750475/nz-tops-imfs...
          • Open-Sourcery 6y ago
            And I am a little hopeful (but doubtful) that might be starting to change. Massive numbers of houses have been consented to be built (especially in the last few years). But just building more probably won't be a permanent solution. https://www.stats.govt.nz/topics/housing https://www.stats.govt.nz/topics/housing https://www.hud.govt.nz/news-and-resources/statistics-and-research/housing-affordability-measure-ham/experimental-housing-affordability-index/ https://www.hud.govt.nz/news-and-resources/statistics-and-re... https://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/index.htm https://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/index.htm
        • sorenbouma 6y ago
          Auckland already has one of the highest house price:median income ratios in the world.
    • versteegen 6y ago
      Check out the new Global Impact Visa. It's a really unique visa for startup founders who get into an incubator-like programme. You don't need any money yourself (just the ability to attract investment) and it lets you spend lots of time outside the country but still get permanent residency in 30 months. https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/global-impact-visa https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/glob...
  • slowmotiony 6y ago
    Not NZ but in Malta it costs around 1-1.5mln eur. I imagine it could be more expensive than NZ as Malta's passport grants you free travel and work possibility across entire EU. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/dealbook/malta-offers-citizenship-and-all-its-perks-for-a-price.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/dealbook/malta-o...
    • erfgh 6y ago
      Malta has cancelled this programme because it was breeding ground for corruption.
      • SiempreViernes 6y ago
        They got pressured by the EU to cancel it, the corruption concern is not exactly new (or surprising).
    • LatteLazy 6y ago
      Just to add some colour... You don't PAY 1m, you INVEST 1m in a Maltese business and they GIVE you the citizenship as you still own whatever you invested in. Find a nice hotel you can buy a share of and you're laughing...
    • newyankee 6y ago
      NZ starts at 3 m $ up to 10 m $ +. More $ gives more points. This is NZ $.
    • thesimon 6y ago
      Portugal is cheaper, just buy real estate for 350-500k€ and you'll get residency, just 5 years later you can get citizenship. There are even some service that'll offer to "loan" you a property by buying at back for the price you bought it for after you got your residency. Unsurprisingly, house prices in Lisbon and Porto have become unaffordable for the locals.
• Thorrez 6y ago
  I remember reading about how Peter Thiel's giant apocalypse-proof property there. Apparently he's agreed to share it with Sam Altman. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-valley-billionaires-are-prepping-for-the-apocalypse-in-new-zealand https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-val...
  • glaucon 6y ago
    No love for Thiel or the mechanism by which he gained a NZ residency visa but the reality is the property in question is a sheep farm 3/4 of a square mile in size beside a pretty lake. That article spends an inordinately long time speculating that there's an "everything proof" structure been built on it but (as far as I saw skim reading) provides no evidence for that at all. You'd be hard pressed keeping that sort of construction quiet in NZ, everyone knows everyone.
    • sjg007 6y ago
      He has citizenship and at least one house in NZ.
    • seniorivn 6y ago
      have you watched BrBa? gus fringe fegured it out
    • jessaustin 6y ago
      .75 sq mile is 480 acres. That is a truly large property, especially in this context.
      • merpnderp 6y ago
        If it’s good land you’d be pressed to run a hundred head of cattle on it. It qualifies as a tiny ranch.
        • jessaustin 6y ago
          It's not West Texas; it's Otago on South Island.
• jively 6y ago
  Citizenship is hard, residency takes forever and must be applied to from outside, and buying a place if you aren't either of the above is now quite difficult.
  • thespoonbends 6y ago
    Not sure if you're rich, as Gabe is. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-gave-peter-thiel-citizenship-after-spending-just-12-days-there https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-ga...
    • jively 6y ago
      That was under a government that played monopoly with our housing market. Bit different now
  • ericmay 6y ago
    Why? It should be easy to immigrate to New Zealand and gain citizenship.
    • jively 6y ago
      Why should it be easy? I live here and it was a PITA just getting residency.
      • ericmay 6y ago
        Why shouldn’t it? I see lots of complaints about the US being difficult. But you and others are saying New Zealand is difficult too?
        • jively 6y ago
          NZ is pretty tight about who they let in, similar to Australia. There's a high bar for an experience/expertise based visa and its limited to certain industries (digital graphics for example - movies are a big deal in the South Island). The only thing it's easy to bring in are seasonal workers from the Pacific islands to pick fruit / work the vineyards. Otherwise it's sponsorship, marriage, or family. Residency (not citizenship) needs to be applied to while outside the country, and the application can take up to a year to be processed (you get a dedicated case worker, you need medical checks, xrays and all kinds of evidence - I needed to submit photos of my wife and I to prove our relationship was legit as well as a bunch of tax records and existing residency proof - it was a lot - also, very expensive!), citizenship requires several years of actual residency. The NZ passport is like the UK one and they can compel you to relinquish existing citizenship if you naturalise. I don't think that will happen with Gaben, Covid has stranded many temporary visa holders here without work or without access to benefits so there's a large policy question about what to do with those that are stranded. But anyone hoping to just emigrate over here because we seem to have our shit together (we don't) is delusional. A big reason that they are so careful about handing out permanent residency is that permanent residents (not temporary visa holders), can vote in parliamentary elections. Which is awesome - no taxation without representation - but gets the local right riled up because any govt can boost their voter count by opening immigration up, which means in general, there's downward pressure on immigration from all sides.
• cheschire 6y ago
  I've been wondering why there are so many weird patches of low resolution old satellite photos covering up lots of tiny chunks of Stewart Island and the surrounding islands. Just seems really strange when one considers the stories of the obscenely rich. How much do those folks pay to have public mapping companies "hide" their apocalypse projects? edit: just as an example: https://i.imgur.com/jg5dqji.jpg https://i.imgur.com/jg5dqji.jpg
  • londons_explore 6y ago
    This naturally happens on land which is steep and causes clouds to form as winds blow ocean air over them. Since clouds form so regularly, mapping providers have a lot of difficulty getting a shot of the whole area in daylight with no clouds, so they end up using algorithms to stitch together the best image they can get from cloud-free parts. In areas with snow, the problem is even worse, because an algorithm to separate snow and cloud is even harder.
    • cheschire 6y ago
      Absolutely, and is a relevant explanation for many of these instances around the world. However there are plenty of instances near disputed areas where resolution is lost, images are outdated etc, and it starts to become a pattern separate from what you're describing. I mean just as the most obvious example of manipulation, look at the lack of 3D imaging in parts of Washington D.C. It's not indicative of ill-will, and is obviously in support of operational security, but it's still clearly a decision made with non-scientific reasons.
  • mkl 6y ago
    10m satellite imagery from 2018-2019: https://data.linz.govt.nz/layer/103539-nz-10m-satellite-imagery-2018-2019/ https://data.linz.govt.nz/layer/103539-nz-10m-satellite-imag... 0.75m aerial imagery from 2005-2011: https://data.linz.govt.nz/layer/51934-southland-075m-rural-aerial-photos-2005-2011/ https://data.linz.govt.nz/layer/51934-southland-075m-rural-a... I'm not sure what you think you're seeing in that picture, but it sounds like you've been listening to too many conspiracy nuts. Not many people live in or go to Stewart Island, so the demand for satellite/aerial imagery is pretty low. It's hardly surprising it's not as recent or accurate as, say, this 7.5cm imagery of Auckland: https://data.linz.govt.nz/layer/95497-auckland-0075m-urban-aerial-photos-2017/ https://data.linz.govt.nz/layer/95497-auckland-0075m-urban-a...
• folli 6y ago
  Honest question: what makes NZ safer than other countries? I assume it depends on the scenario? Political turmoil could make sense (I don't know enough about NZ politics), global warming probably less so?
  • cblconfederate 6y ago
    Isolated and well developed probably, and small nation. They have effectively eradicated COVID, have you seen videos from their elections?
    • dzhiurgis 6y ago
      Auckland central candidate pulled off a drag show in their campaign. She won.
  • simonh 6y ago
    They are remote, defensible, politically and socially stable, self-sufficient in food and many materials. NZ does not have nuclear weapons, or host nukes for anyone else so they're not a retaliation or first strike target. They're also in the southern hemisphere, which is useful in a nuclear winter scenario.
    • jobigoud 6y ago
      A nuclear winter is planet wide no? With which aspect being in the southern hemisphere helps?
      • simonh 6y ago
        Most nuclear targets are in the northern hemisphere and most atmospheric circulation follows lines of latitude or regional patterns. While a full on nuclear winter would eventually have global effects, not everywhere would be impacted equally in terms of severity or duration. The most severe effects would be felt in the north. For a more limited exchange with regional or continental wide effects, there are few regions in the north not at risk of such a conflict. With a pattern of impact driven by latitudinal or regional weather patterns, the impact on the southern hemisphere of any regional northern conflict are likely to be minimal.
• gonzo41 6y ago
  hmmm, pretty bad bet for avoiding catastrophe, it's on a massive fault line.