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Far from "compromise", Signal implements the only privacy conscious possibility here. Without automatic contact discovery "Signal private messenger" would be f

Far from "compromise", Signal implements the only privacy conscious possibility here. Without automatic contact discovery "Signal private messenger" would be forced to default to not-private for all contacts until manual confirmation could occur. Adding UX friction to the primary use case would hinder adoption among non security-enthusiasts. With protection for the casual user eliminated, the truly sensitive communications of those motivated for privacy would stick out like a sore thumb, revealing many more bits of meta data than just "this number had signal once." Elite users who care about being "outted" simply for signal participation can take steps to mitigate. The rest of us need automatic contact discovery for Signal to not be useless.

jhayward 6y ago
I think a reply that simply dismisses phone number outing as something unimportant is fairly offensive, and does not advance the case you are making.
cyphar 6y ago
Alternatively, users could be given the option to opt-out of automated contact discovery so that most users have the current behaviour but people who don't want others to find out they've started using Signal (there are dozens of fairly serious situations where this could be very bad -- dismissing them like you did by calling them "elite" betrays you don't actually care about the issue being described). I mean, the fact that Signal actively notifies you when a contact registers for Signal is a complete misfeature (yes, this is basically a cosmetic complaint). It actively outs people who don't want to be outed and it's a useless notification to all of your contacts if you don't care about it.
- elevation 6y ago
  I imagine that getting caught using Signal could be dangerous, whether to an "elite user" planning a one way trip from Hawaii to Russia with a layover in HK, or even to a minor with an abusive parent-over-shoulder. In some countries, a single boolean of metadata could put you in jail or worse. A future Signal update (usernames?) may address this use case. But update or no, it's irresponsible to proffer these scenarios as relevant to the typical westerner, especially given the abysmal privacy of the popular alternatives. If you're reading this in English, Signal is the most effective tool for private communications available to you.
  - cyphar 6y ago
    > But update or no, it's irresponsible to proffer these scenarios as relevant to the typical westerner, especially given the abysmal privacy of the popular alternatives. Have you considered the (sadly) common case of an abusive partner who is likely to see your sudden usage of Signal as an indication that you are speaking to other people about their abuse, or at the least asking others for help? I don't think these scenarios are nearly as rare as you think they are. These cases do definitely happen in English-speaking countries -- not that I understand your argument here in the first place (Signal is available world-wide and has been translated to many other languages, what does language have to do with anything?). Not to mention that Signal themselves don't warn you about this behaviour at all. (Yes, you could argue that an abusive partner has many other avenues through which to discover that you're asking for help -- but that isn't a defense of providing more avenues for an abuser to discover you're asking for help. Again, Signal actively notifies all of your contacts that you've started using Signal -- which is above and beyond the transparent upgrade from SMS to Signal messages you mentioned.)
    - zepto 6y ago
      Signal isn’t optimized for the use case where you need to use it to ask for help in an abuse scenario. But isn’t that scenario a weak one? How would you know to install signal and reach out to a specific person for help if you hadn’t already asked for help?

jhayward 6y ago

I think a reply that simply dismisses phone number outing as something unimportant is fairly offensive, and does not advance the case you are making.

cyphar 6y ago

Alternatively, users could be given the option to opt-out of automated contact discovery so that most users have the current behaviour but people who don't want others to find out they've started using Signal (there are dozens of fairly serious situations where this could be very bad -- dismissing them like you did by calling them "elite" betrays you don't actually care about the issue being described). I mean, the fact that Signal actively notifies you when a contact registers for Signal is a complete misfeature (yes, this is basically a cosmetic complaint). It actively outs people who don't want to be outed and it's a useless notification to all of your contacts if you don't care about it.

elevation 6y ago
I imagine that getting caught using Signal could be dangerous, whether to an "elite user" planning a one way trip from Hawaii to Russia with a layover in HK, or even to a minor with an abusive parent-over-shoulder. In some countries, a single boolean of metadata could put you in jail or worse. A future Signal update (usernames?) may address this use case. But update or no, it's irresponsible to proffer these scenarios as relevant to the typical westerner, especially given the abysmal privacy of the popular alternatives. If you're reading this in English, Signal is the most effective tool for private communications available to you.
- cyphar 6y ago
  > But update or no, it's irresponsible to proffer these scenarios as relevant to the typical westerner, especially given the abysmal privacy of the popular alternatives. Have you considered the (sadly) common case of an abusive partner who is likely to see your sudden usage of Signal as an indication that you are speaking to other people about their abuse, or at the least asking others for help? I don't think these scenarios are nearly as rare as you think they are. These cases do definitely happen in English-speaking countries -- not that I understand your argument here in the first place (Signal is available world-wide and has been translated to many other languages, what does language have to do with anything?). Not to mention that Signal themselves don't warn you about this behaviour at all. (Yes, you could argue that an abusive partner has many other avenues through which to discover that you're asking for help -- but that isn't a defense of providing more avenues for an abuser to discover you're asking for help. Again, Signal actively notifies all of your contacts that you've started using Signal -- which is above and beyond the transparent upgrade from SMS to Signal messages you mentioned.)
  - zepto 6y ago
    Signal isn’t optimized for the use case where you need to use it to ask for help in an abuse scenario. But isn’t that scenario a weak one? How would you know to install signal and reach out to a specific person for help if you hadn’t already asked for help?