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Signal is OSS and you can start your own fork & network if you want to. App publishing platforms not having a good binary signature verification system is the

by novok 6y ago

Signal is OSS and you can start your own fork & network if you want to. App publishing platforms not having a good binary signature verification system is the orthogonal issue that you're bringing up, that would in many ways apply to matrix for most users too. Most will never bother to sideload it.

p1necone 6y ago
> Signal is OSS and you can start your own fork & network if you want to. You can't though, what use is your own fork when nobody uses it?
- askvictor 6y ago
  If you're really paranoid, you'd convince your contacts to use your fork.
  - dexterdog 6y ago
    I can't even convince my contacts to use signal.
    - sdenton4 6y ago
      My approach is to use Signal for organizing surprise birthday parties. (or at least I did before the world went to shit.) "We need SUPER SECURITY to make sure Rob doesn't find out what's up! So we're all using Signal to plan... Join up!"
      - askvictor 6y ago
        Does Rob work for the NSA?
ryukafalz 6y ago
>Signal is OSS and you can start your own fork & network if you want to. Resources and network effects make this a much much less likely endeavor than in federated systems. I can reasonably (and do!) self-host Matrix and XMPP servers for myself and a few friends; I cannot reasonably host a Signal server for everyone I might want to possibly contact via Signal. (And that's setting aside the effort involved in convincing everyone I might possibly want to contact to use my Signal server. It's just not going to happen.) EDIT: Oh, and I don't think the VoIP side of the Signal server is FOSS? At least I believe that used to be the case. >App publishing platforms not having a good binary signature verification system is the orthogonal issue that you're bringing up, that would in many ways apply to matrix for most users too. Most will never bother to sideload it. If the main client developers are pressured to put a backdoor into their client, I would expect non-backdoored forks to rapidly pop up in the stores. If the platform provider is also legally pressured to not allow any non-backdoored clients into the store... well, I hope that never happens, but if we get to that point I hope more people would bother to learn more and start sideloading things. Maybe wishful thinking on my part.
- est31 6y ago
  Not to mention that in a centralized system only a single entity has to be manipulated to turn over the data, whether it's through court orders, laws, extortion, corruption (as e.g. happened with Skype), or a combination of the above. In a decentralized system, the job of the centralization has to be done by the people who want access to the data in the first place. Have to ring more bells, creates more people who know about the spying. A much harder job and there isn't any "easy" access to almost all data any more.
ploxiln 6y ago
Signal disallows federation from forks (it has been attempted). "Using signal" requires using the official build, and that requires closed-source libraries and services (e.g. Google Play Services).
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Signal doesn't require Google Play Services. It will use Play Services if installed for notifications, but works fine without them, and it can be installed on LineageOS etc.
  - cyphar 6y ago
    In fairness to GP, this only became true a few years ago and Signal has not advertised this (nor the fact that you can now download the Signal APK from their website and it auto-updates outside of the play store[1]). Folks who opted to not use Signal some time ago likely had no way of finding this out, and Moxie's comments on this in ~2014 gave the impression that it would never happen. [1]: https://signal.org/android/apk/ https://signal.org/android/apk/
im3w1l 6y ago
Reddit is (was?) open source without federation just like signal. Reddit used to be pro free speech. Now they are banning people and communities like the_donald and brag about how deplatforming works. People can create their own little ghettos but it's inconsequential and no one uses them. It's not a stretch to imagine a repeat. That moxie will brag in 10 years about how much he is banning people and how well it works. I wonder who will be unpopular in 10 years.. EDIT: Or he might hang himself like Aaron Schwartz.

by novok 6y ago

p1necone 6y ago

> Signal is OSS and you can start your own fork & network if you want to. You can't though, what use is your own fork when nobody uses it?

askvictor 6y ago
If you're really paranoid, you'd convince your contacts to use your fork.
- dexterdog 6y ago
  I can't even convince my contacts to use signal.
  - sdenton4 6y ago
    My approach is to use Signal for organizing surprise birthday parties. (or at least I did before the world went to shit.) "We need SUPER SECURITY to make sure Rob doesn't find out what's up! So we're all using Signal to plan... Join up!"
    - askvictor 6y ago
      Does Rob work for the NSA?

ryukafalz 6y ago

>Signal is OSS and you can start your own fork & network if you want to. Resources and network effects make this a much much less likely endeavor than in federated systems. I can reasonably (and do!) self-host Matrix and XMPP servers for myself and a few friends; I cannot reasonably host a Signal server for everyone I might want to possibly contact via Signal. (And that's setting aside the effort involved in convincing everyone I might possibly want to contact to use my Signal server. It's just not going to happen.) EDIT: Oh, and I don't think the VoIP side of the Signal server is FOSS? At least I believe that used to be the case. >App publishing platforms not having a good binary signature verification system is the orthogonal issue that you're bringing up, that would in many ways apply to matrix for most users too. Most will never bother to sideload it. If the main client developers are pressured to put a backdoor into their client, I would expect non-backdoored forks to rapidly pop up in the stores. If the platform provider is also legally pressured to not allow any non-backdoored clients into the store... well, I hope that never happens, but if we get to that point I hope more people would bother to learn more and start sideloading things. Maybe wishful thinking on my part.

est31 6y ago
Not to mention that in a centralized system only a single entity has to be manipulated to turn over the data, whether it's through court orders, laws, extortion, corruption (as e.g. happened with Skype), or a combination of the above. In a decentralized system, the job of the centralization has to be done by the people who want access to the data in the first place. Have to ring more bells, creates more people who know about the spying. A much harder job and there isn't any "easy" access to almost all data any more.

ploxiln 6y ago

Signal disallows federation from forks (it has been attempted). "Using signal" requires using the official build, and that requires closed-source libraries and services (e.g. Google Play Services).

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Signal doesn't require Google Play Services. It will use Play Services if installed for notifications, but works fine without them, and it can be installed on LineageOS etc.
- cyphar 6y ago
  In fairness to GP, this only became true a few years ago and Signal has not advertised this (nor the fact that you can now download the Signal APK from their website and it auto-updates outside of the play store[1]). Folks who opted to not use Signal some time ago likely had no way of finding this out, and Moxie's comments on this in ~2014 gave the impression that it would never happen. [1]: https://signal.org/android/apk/ https://signal.org/android/apk/

im3w1l 6y ago

Reddit is (was?) open source without federation just like signal. Reddit used to be pro free speech. Now they are banning people and communities like the_donald and brag about how deplatforming works. People can create their own little ghettos but it's inconsequential and no one uses them. It's not a stretch to imagine a repeat. That moxie will brag in 10 years about how much he is banning people and how well it works. I wonder who will be unpopular in 10 years.. EDIT: Or he might hang himself like Aaron Schwartz.