4 ms·

It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much in

It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. That said, it's generally true that any dependence on a platform is a form of risk. There are documented examples of Google kicking people out of their ecosystem unexpectedly too. Federated sign-in schemes may be a good idea if they help your users create accounts and authenticate more easily, but it certainly seems smart to offer more than one, including your own email-based option.

arcticbull 6y ago
Apple isn't perfect, and yeah, you might run into a situation where you have to sue. Them taking away the ability for half your users two sign in to your app while your dispute makes its way through the courts is seriously problematic.
- jen729w 6y ago
  I don’t think it’s ever been shown that Apple did this at all, let alone maliciously. If anyone has a source to the contrary, we need it here please. And I mean a documented source, not hearsay. Edit: there’s discussion below.
ROARosen 6y ago
>It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. Nevertheless, the suspension still clearly highlights the fealty you are expected to give to Apple being a dev on their platform, or else.
- tomc1985 6y ago
  And neither is Epic the first nor last of the kind of people who want to pick this fight with Apple, even if they can't
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
kyriakos 6y ago
What if I'm running a site that is against apple's beliefs? E.g you run an adult site? Would you risk it?
- snowwrestler 6y ago
  Apple doesn't allow adult content in their App Store, but they don't do anything to prevent adult sites from loading in Safari, even on iOS--never have. They seem to draw a distinction between their walled gardens and the open web. I'll admit I'm not an expert on Face ID and Touch ID for the web, but to me it looks like a feature of the Safari browser, not a walled garden.
  - brabel 6y ago
    They use Web Authn, which is an open Web API : https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Authentication_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Authent... Implementing a client with this also works on Android and any computer that supports some kind of hardware authentication mechanism, like fingerprint or face recognition.
  - samtheprogram 6y ago
    On the contrary, although not against all uses within Safari, there are rules against use of Sign In with Apple depending on what you are doing, including one against pornographic websites as mentioned. https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guidelines-for-websites-and-other-platforms/ https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guideli...
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Loads of companies - especially financial processors - don't want anything to do with adult sites, so if you're in that industry you're already up for a challenge. I've worked for a project for the tobacco industry, similar story.
jeroenhd 6y ago
> It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. Actually, it's clear that they intentionally got their _app removed_. The termination of their entire Apple account was a step I wouldn't have expected Apple to take because it underlines the fragility of their authentication system. Now, player who signed up to Fortnite on their phones can't continue to play anywhere else, probably making them regret using the Apple sign-in in the first place. I generally consider any federated login that doesn't have an external email address attached to be fleeting, possibly disappearing out of the blue. I've lost some minor accounts when I deleted my Facebook account with services that didn't offer an email alternative. Developers, at least make adding an email/username and password optional once I've signed in with another service account, because that account might just disappear altogether one day!
- ascagnel_ 6y ago
  > Actually, it's clear that they intentionally got their _app removed_. The termination of their entire Apple account was a step I wouldn't have expected Apple to take because it underlines the fragility of their authentication system. Now, player who signed up to Fortnite on their phones can't continue to play anywhere else, probably making them regret using the Apple sign-in in the first place. - Apple never indicated that they’d remove Epic’s SIWA support, and there have been reports that Apple went out of their way to make sure the support would survive the account being terminated [0] - Apple’s developer agreement allows them to terminate the account of an offending developer after 30 days; Epic’s account was terminated 45+ days after breach. [0] https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unreliable-narrator https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unre... (with the caveat that John Gruber shills for Apple, but also has some good contacts within)
  - athms 6y ago
    >John Gruber shills for Apple... A shill is a person who pretends to give a neutral endorsement but has an interest in the deal.
  - 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago

Apple isn't perfect, and yeah, you might run into a situation where you have to sue. Them taking away the ability for half your users two sign in to your app while your dispute makes its way through the courts is seriously problematic.

jen729w 6y ago
I don’t think it’s ever been shown that Apple did this at all, let alone maliciously. If anyone has a source to the contrary, we need it here please. And I mean a documented source, not hearsay. Edit: there’s discussion below.

ROARosen 6y ago

>It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. Nevertheless, the suspension still clearly highlights the fealty you are expected to give to Apple being a dev on their platform, or else.

tomc1985 6y ago
And neither is Epic the first nor last of the kind of people who want to pick this fight with Apple, even if they can't
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

kyriakos 6y ago

What if I'm running a site that is against apple's beliefs? E.g you run an adult site? Would you risk it?

snowwrestler 6y ago
Apple doesn't allow adult content in their App Store, but they don't do anything to prevent adult sites from loading in Safari, even on iOS--never have. They seem to draw a distinction between their walled gardens and the open web. I'll admit I'm not an expert on Face ID and Touch ID for the web, but to me it looks like a feature of the Safari browser, not a walled garden.
- brabel 6y ago
  They use Web Authn, which is an open Web API : https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Authentication_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Authent... Implementing a client with this also works on Android and any computer that supports some kind of hardware authentication mechanism, like fingerprint or face recognition.
- samtheprogram 6y ago
  On the contrary, although not against all uses within Safari, there are rules against use of Sign In with Apple depending on what you are doing, including one against pornographic websites as mentioned. https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guidelines-for-websites-and-other-platforms/ https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guideli...
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Loads of companies - especially financial processors - don't want anything to do with adult sites, so if you're in that industry you're already up for a challenge. I've worked for a project for the tobacco industry, similar story.

jeroenhd 6y ago

> It's pretty clear Epic set out to intentionally get their Apple developer account terminated so they would have standing to sue, so I would not draw too much inference from that. Actually, it's clear that they intentionally got their _app removed_. The termination of their entire Apple account was a step I wouldn't have expected Apple to take because it underlines the fragility of their authentication system. Now, player who signed up to Fortnite on their phones can't continue to play anywhere else, probably making them regret using the Apple sign-in in the first place. I generally consider any federated login that doesn't have an external email address attached to be fleeting, possibly disappearing out of the blue. I've lost some minor accounts when I deleted my Facebook account with services that didn't offer an email alternative. Developers, at least make adding an email/username and password optional once I've signed in with another service account, because that account might just disappear altogether one day!

ascagnel_ 6y ago
> Actually, it's clear that they intentionally got their _app removed_. The termination of their entire Apple account was a step I wouldn't have expected Apple to take because it underlines the fragility of their authentication system. Now, player who signed up to Fortnite on their phones can't continue to play anywhere else, probably making them regret using the Apple sign-in in the first place. - Apple never indicated that they’d remove Epic’s SIWA support, and there have been reports that Apple went out of their way to make sure the support would survive the account being terminated [0] - Apple’s developer agreement allows them to terminate the account of an offending developer after 30 days; Epic’s account was terminated 45+ days after breach. [0] https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unreliable-narrator https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/09/29/epic-games-unre... (with the caveat that John Gruber shills for Apple, but also has some good contacts within)
- athms 6y ago
  >John Gruber shills for Apple... A shill is a person who pretends to give a neutral endorsement but has an interest in the deal.
- 6y ago