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Ugh. I hope the upcoming discrete GPUs from Intel [1] and ImgTec [2] are competitive, because Nvidia desperately needs more competition. The Nvidia Linux driver

Ugh. I hope the upcoming discrete GPUs from Intel [1] and ImgTec [2] are competitive, because Nvidia desperately needs more competition. The Nvidia Linux driver situation is the single worst part of using Linux for me. I've lost count of the number of times Nvidia has rendered my machine unbootable for one reason or another. [1] https://www.engadget.com/intel-xe-gpu-gamers-130000411.html https://www.engadget.com/intel-xe-gpu-gamers-130000411.html [2] Yes, ImgTec/PowerVR is getting back into the discrete GPU game! https://www.imgtec.com/blog/back-in-the-high-performance-game/ https://www.imgtec.com/blog/back-in-the-high-performance-gam...

bayindirh 6y ago
There's always AMD/ATI with its completely open drivers and hardware. AMD even redesigned the silicon to isolate HDCP from rest of the core to be able to open video encoders and other HDCP facing hardware to open drivers. Also, AMD's open driver's written by a different team in AMD. So they're not exactly 3rd party drivers.
- 3np 6y ago
  For how long, though? https://www.arm.com/company/news/2020/09/nvidia-to-acquire-arm https://www.arm.com/company/news/2020/09/nvidia-to-acquire-a...
- zamalek 6y ago
  And hopefully AMD has good news on the 28th.
- modeless 6y ago
  Unfortunately AMD totally missed the boat on ML. They need to dramatically increase their investment both in hardware and software. My impression in the past has also been that they lag in performance on the high end, and their OpenGL driver quality is not as good in terms of features and conformance either. Though I am not totally up to date on their latest stuff.
  - BearOso 6y ago
    The OpenGL quality problems are strictly on the Windows side. The open-source OpenGL drivers are very good.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    I don't think any company, aside from NVidia, is working on FP16 Tensor cores. Not Intel, not AMD. Google has a systolic processor for tensor units, but that's cloud only. I know ML is where the current money is at, but coprocessors in general seem to be applicable to far more problems than just machine learning and graphics.
    - bayindirh 6y ago
      Just food for thought: What if AMD actually acquires Xilinix? Everybody thought it's about CPU-FPGA integration but, they may pull something very, very different.
      - dragontamer 6y ago
        I'm not an expert on Xilinx's stuff, but Xilinx's 18-bit x 27-bit multiplier DSP48 architecture still seems quite awkward to me. https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/white_papers/wp486-deep-learning-int8.pdf https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/white_papers/wp... True, a systolic processor can be built out of these components, but I doubt it'd be anything as fast as a proper matrix-multiplication unit that NVidia is putting out. And that's after the complications associated with FPGA programming. ---------- Xilinx's FPGAs are a combination of LUTs (4-bit or 6-bit look-up tables), Routing, and "DSP Slices" (prefabricated multipliers). The bulk of your math is still going to be performed in the DSP Slice. Where FPGAs win is that their LUTs and Routing tables allow you to create custom high-speed glue-logic between these DSP slices. But when it comes to something like a regular Convolutional neural net, the routing is very straightforward. ------ I'm not really a deep learning expert. I know that FP16 seems to be pushed by NVidia. This INT8 stuff seems odd to me (there's no way INT8 gets the same dynamic range as FP16), but I'm also not really sure if the dynamic range is needed or useful in deep learning applications.
- loosescrews 6y ago
  Open source is great, but AMD is not a good example of how to do open source right. AMD's drivers are often not usable in released kernels until many months after hardware is released. For example, AMD is just now adding initial support for their new GPUs [1]. From what I have read, good support for AMD's previous generation is only now getting to distributions. Intel on the other hand typically has their drivers in released kernels long before their hardware is released. Intel's New GPUs haven't been released yet, but they first started adding support in early 2019 [2]. I can't find it now, but I remember hearing a story about Intel removing drivers from the kernel tree for some hardware that they cancelled. If you want to use a modern high-end GPU in Linux, your only real choice continues to be Nvidia. Their drivers are not open source, but at least they work at launch (except maybe with a 5.9 kernel?). This is why Intel entering into the high-end GPU space is so exciting. Soon we may have a high-end option with good open source drivers while the part is still high-end. [1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-5.9-Released https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-5.... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/02/18/intel-already-adding-linux-kernel-support-for-2020-dedicated-gpu-releases/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/02/18/intel...
  - sce 6y ago
    This comment is very weird. For Linux users it is definitely better buying an AMD discrete graphics card than Nvidia, and it has been for an eternity. Just google "torvalds Nvidia" as an example of how the community feels about Nvidia. Is it even possible using Nvidia cards with Wayland? Nvidia has a history of problems in Linux. I can still remember having to log out of my X session just to change monitor layout; which is something you do alot with a laptop and external displays. Took them several years to fix! I've experienced intel boards where I had trouble getting anything but the newest fedora with custom kernel parameter to even get the installer running. But most of the time intel has very good upstream support, so it is normally a pretty safe bet. With AMD there are sometimes delays getting full support for a new generation upstreamed (e.g. hdmi audio and such), so it is usually good to Google for Linux reviews first. In general AMD has superb open source support for their cards, if not immediately at launch, and I recommend them for Linux users who want the least amount of hassle. I've seen people recommending Nvidia to Linux on YouTube (and now here), and I honestly think it's a disfavor to anyone interested in Linux.
redisman 6y ago
Interesting to see new players. I hope they can compete on the high end, Nvidia seems a bit lost with it's direction and power budgets right now. I would imagine Apple has the know-how to scale their mobile GPU chips in some ways too but they just want efficient chips for their own devices.
ksec 6y ago
Its funny you mention Intel and Img without mentioning AMD. IMG 's drivers aren't exactly known for their quality and Intel GPU are / will be competing with a process node disadvantage.
- modeless 6y ago
  I think it's fair to assume that most HN readers have heard of Nvidia's single existing competitor in the discrete GPU market. But many may not have heard that Intel and ImgTec are entering the market in the next year or two. You're right that PowerVR drivers are likely to suck. However, you're wrong about Intel being at a process node disadvantage, because their GPUs are going to be fabricated by TSMC :-O
  - ksec 6y ago
    >because their GPUs are going to be fabricated by TSMC Only one of their specific SKUs out of dozen are fabbed by TSMC, and it was a very late addition to the lineup. As long as Intel operate their own leading edge Fab, Intel's incentive is and always will be to fully utilise their own fab capacity as much as possible in order to gain economy of scale.
izacus 6y ago
Except that the incompatibility seems to be implemented by the kernel team (again), breaking the nVidia driver. Is that deliberate to fuck with nVidia?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- powersnail 6y ago
  Probably not. If there is a hole in the wall, you'd expect that it's gonna be fixed at some point, and not claiming it's a feature of the wall. nVidia probably saw this coming, but doesn't care that much to proactively work on it. Most of those running ML applications don't have to update the kernel very promptly, and they only have to wait until mid-November, according to nVidia. This few months of delay couldn't possibly hurt nVidia to any meaningful degree.
- sce 6y ago
  Nice wording by Nvidia. Linux has an unstable/ever changing internal API and Nvidia need to update their out of tree driver for the new release, and probably every release. Nvidia is trying to put the blame on Linux, but Intel and AMD don't have these issues because they open sourced and upstreamed their drivers (for AMD they mostly did), which is the way to work with open source. Linux has always been fighting an uphill battle, but as it becomes more and more relevant it is becoming increasingly difficult to fight against it. Intel understands this, and AMD understands this. The wording by Nvidia is telling for how they view Linux I think. In fairness it's probably very costly for them to go open source (one time cost at least).
  - 1_player 6y ago
    Care to point out where in TFA Nvidia has been putting the blame on Linux?
    - sce 6y ago
      The specific wording was "Linux Kernel 5.9+ is incompatible with current and previous NVIDIA Linux GPU drivers." So it's not the driver that is incompatible, it is Linux. And that led to the grandparent comment asking if Linux people are "deliberate to fuck with nvidia". If nvidia had said "our driver is incompatible with the newest Linux kernel" then we probably wouldn't been having this thread.
znpy 6y ago
> Yes, ImgTec/PowerVR is getting back into the discrete GPU game! Are FOSS drivers available? If not, ImgTec/PowerVR is worthless and they can come back from whence they came. EDIT: Their webpage for their current gpus list no drivers at all (where is a generic user supposed to find them?) and no mention of Linux at all. That's not promising at all. If they want to become a failure again, they're on the right track.
pantalaimon 6y ago
PowerVR drivers have been a lot worse than anything Nvidia ever released in the past. I don’t expect open drivers from them.
eznzt 6y ago
> I hope the upcoming discrete GPUs from Intel [1] and ImgTec [2] are competitive, because Nvidia desperately needs more competition. What we need is a stable driver API in Linux.
raffraffraff 6y ago
On my ThinkPad I've just disabled the Nvidia and purchased a usb hdmi dongle (pretty low profile, little more than a standard hdmi cable). I leave the Nvidia off permanently because it's the only way I can have a laptop that supports multiple monitors and doesn't fucking chew through battery. I couldn't give a toss about graphics performance, this is a work machine so I'm not playing games on it. Fuck Nvidia, and fuck Lenovo for making the Nvidia necessary in order for the hdmi port to work.
- p1necone 6y ago
  You can buy thinkpads that just have integrated graphics. The dedicated card is a desirable feature for a lot of people - Lenovo didn't go out of their way to screw you, you just bought a product that has a feature you don't need. I'm not sure why you're so angry...
  - atomi 6y ago
    I'm sure there are very legal and very cool reasons as to why, but the result is a hardware lock in to Windows.
  - raffraffraff 6y ago
    I didn't buy it. It's a work laptop that I didn't have a choice in. But to that comment, many Linux users assume that ThinkPads are a solid mobile work horse. I certainly would have said so. But I would happily switch to a MacBook Pro from 2016. I would say that having to restart X any time you want to switch between battery saving on-the-go, and multiple monitors when you're at your desk, is a hard fail.

bayindirh 6y ago

There's always AMD/ATI with its completely open drivers and hardware. AMD even redesigned the silicon to isolate HDCP from rest of the core to be able to open video encoders and other HDCP facing hardware to open drivers. Also, AMD's open driver's written by a different team in AMD. So they're not exactly 3rd party drivers.

3np 6y ago
For how long, though? https://www.arm.com/company/news/2020/09/nvidia-to-acquire-arm https://www.arm.com/company/news/2020/09/nvidia-to-acquire-a...
zamalek 6y ago
And hopefully AMD has good news on the 28th.
modeless 6y ago
Unfortunately AMD totally missed the boat on ML. They need to dramatically increase their investment both in hardware and software. My impression in the past has also been that they lag in performance on the high end, and their OpenGL driver quality is not as good in terms of features and conformance either. Though I am not totally up to date on their latest stuff.
- BearOso 6y ago
  The OpenGL quality problems are strictly on the Windows side. The open-source OpenGL drivers are very good.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  I don't think any company, aside from NVidia, is working on FP16 Tensor cores. Not Intel, not AMD. Google has a systolic processor for tensor units, but that's cloud only. I know ML is where the current money is at, but coprocessors in general seem to be applicable to far more problems than just machine learning and graphics.
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    Just food for thought: What if AMD actually acquires Xilinix? Everybody thought it's about CPU-FPGA integration but, they may pull something very, very different.
    - dragontamer 6y ago
      I'm not an expert on Xilinx's stuff, but Xilinx's 18-bit x 27-bit multiplier DSP48 architecture still seems quite awkward to me. https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/white_papers/wp486-deep-learning-int8.pdf https://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/white_papers/wp... True, a systolic processor can be built out of these components, but I doubt it'd be anything as fast as a proper matrix-multiplication unit that NVidia is putting out. And that's after the complications associated with FPGA programming. ---------- Xilinx's FPGAs are a combination of LUTs (4-bit or 6-bit look-up tables), Routing, and "DSP Slices" (prefabricated multipliers). The bulk of your math is still going to be performed in the DSP Slice. Where FPGAs win is that their LUTs and Routing tables allow you to create custom high-speed glue-logic between these DSP slices. But when it comes to something like a regular Convolutional neural net, the routing is very straightforward. ------ I'm not really a deep learning expert. I know that FP16 seems to be pushed by NVidia. This INT8 stuff seems odd to me (there's no way INT8 gets the same dynamic range as FP16), but I'm also not really sure if the dynamic range is needed or useful in deep learning applications.
loosescrews 6y ago
Open source is great, but AMD is not a good example of how to do open source right. AMD's drivers are often not usable in released kernels until many months after hardware is released. For example, AMD is just now adding initial support for their new GPUs [1]. From what I have read, good support for AMD's previous generation is only now getting to distributions. Intel on the other hand typically has their drivers in released kernels long before their hardware is released. Intel's New GPUs haven't been released yet, but they first started adding support in early 2019 [2]. I can't find it now, but I remember hearing a story about Intel removing drivers from the kernel tree for some hardware that they cancelled. If you want to use a modern high-end GPU in Linux, your only real choice continues to be Nvidia. Their drivers are not open source, but at least they work at launch (except maybe with a 5.9 kernel?). This is why Intel entering into the high-end GPU space is so exciting. Soon we may have a high-end option with good open source drivers while the part is still high-end. [1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-5.9-Released https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-5.... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/02/18/intel-already-adding-linux-kernel-support-for-2020-dedicated-gpu-releases/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/02/18/intel...
- sce 6y ago
  This comment is very weird. For Linux users it is definitely better buying an AMD discrete graphics card than Nvidia, and it has been for an eternity. Just google "torvalds Nvidia" as an example of how the community feels about Nvidia. Is it even possible using Nvidia cards with Wayland? Nvidia has a history of problems in Linux. I can still remember having to log out of my X session just to change monitor layout; which is something you do alot with a laptop and external displays. Took them several years to fix! I've experienced intel boards where I had trouble getting anything but the newest fedora with custom kernel parameter to even get the installer running. But most of the time intel has very good upstream support, so it is normally a pretty safe bet. With AMD there are sometimes delays getting full support for a new generation upstreamed (e.g. hdmi audio and such), so it is usually good to Google for Linux reviews first. In general AMD has superb open source support for their cards, if not immediately at launch, and I recommend them for Linux users who want the least amount of hassle. I've seen people recommending Nvidia to Linux on YouTube (and now here), and I honestly think it's a disfavor to anyone interested in Linux.

redisman 6y ago

Interesting to see new players. I hope they can compete on the high end, Nvidia seems a bit lost with it's direction and power budgets right now. I would imagine Apple has the know-how to scale their mobile GPU chips in some ways too but they just want efficient chips for their own devices.

ksec 6y ago

Its funny you mention Intel and Img without mentioning AMD. IMG 's drivers aren't exactly known for their quality and Intel GPU are / will be competing with a process node disadvantage.

modeless 6y ago
I think it's fair to assume that most HN readers have heard of Nvidia's single existing competitor in the discrete GPU market. But many may not have heard that Intel and ImgTec are entering the market in the next year or two. You're right that PowerVR drivers are likely to suck. However, you're wrong about Intel being at a process node disadvantage, because their GPUs are going to be fabricated by TSMC :-O
- ksec 6y ago
  >because their GPUs are going to be fabricated by TSMC Only one of their specific SKUs out of dozen are fabbed by TSMC, and it was a very late addition to the lineup. As long as Intel operate their own leading edge Fab, Intel's incentive is and always will be to fully utilise their own fab capacity as much as possible in order to gain economy of scale.

izacus 6y ago

Except that the incompatibility seems to be implemented by the kernel team (again), breaking the nVidia driver. Is that deliberate to fuck with nVidia?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
powersnail 6y ago
Probably not. If there is a hole in the wall, you'd expect that it's gonna be fixed at some point, and not claiming it's a feature of the wall. nVidia probably saw this coming, but doesn't care that much to proactively work on it. Most of those running ML applications don't have to update the kernel very promptly, and they only have to wait until mid-November, according to nVidia. This few months of delay couldn't possibly hurt nVidia to any meaningful degree.
sce 6y ago
Nice wording by Nvidia. Linux has an unstable/ever changing internal API and Nvidia need to update their out of tree driver for the new release, and probably every release. Nvidia is trying to put the blame on Linux, but Intel and AMD don't have these issues because they open sourced and upstreamed their drivers (for AMD they mostly did), which is the way to work with open source. Linux has always been fighting an uphill battle, but as it becomes more and more relevant it is becoming increasingly difficult to fight against it. Intel understands this, and AMD understands this. The wording by Nvidia is telling for how they view Linux I think. In fairness it's probably very costly for them to go open source (one time cost at least).
- 1_player 6y ago
  Care to point out where in TFA Nvidia has been putting the blame on Linux?
  - sce 6y ago
    The specific wording was "Linux Kernel 5.9+ is incompatible with current and previous NVIDIA Linux GPU drivers." So it's not the driver that is incompatible, it is Linux. And that led to the grandparent comment asking if Linux people are "deliberate to fuck with nvidia". If nvidia had said "our driver is incompatible with the newest Linux kernel" then we probably wouldn't been having this thread.

znpy 6y ago

> Yes, ImgTec/PowerVR is getting back into the discrete GPU game! Are FOSS drivers available? If not, ImgTec/PowerVR is worthless and they can come back from whence they came. EDIT: Their webpage for their current gpus list no drivers at all (where is a generic user supposed to find them?) and no mention of Linux at all. That's not promising at all. If they want to become a failure again, they're on the right track.

pantalaimon 6y ago

PowerVR drivers have been a lot worse than anything Nvidia ever released in the past. I don’t expect open drivers from them.

eznzt 6y ago

> I hope the upcoming discrete GPUs from Intel [1] and ImgTec [2] are competitive, because Nvidia desperately needs more competition. What we need is a stable driver API in Linux.

raffraffraff 6y ago

On my ThinkPad I've just disabled the Nvidia and purchased a usb hdmi dongle (pretty low profile, little more than a standard hdmi cable). I leave the Nvidia off permanently because it's the only way I can have a laptop that supports multiple monitors and doesn't fucking chew through battery. I couldn't give a toss about graphics performance, this is a work machine so I'm not playing games on it. Fuck Nvidia, and fuck Lenovo for making the Nvidia necessary in order for the hdmi port to work.

p1necone 6y ago
You can buy thinkpads that just have integrated graphics. The dedicated card is a desirable feature for a lot of people - Lenovo didn't go out of their way to screw you, you just bought a product that has a feature you don't need. I'm not sure why you're so angry...
- atomi 6y ago
  I'm sure there are very legal and very cool reasons as to why, but the result is a hardware lock in to Windows.
- raffraffraff 6y ago
  I didn't buy it. It's a work laptop that I didn't have a choice in. But to that comment, many Linux users assume that ThinkPads are a solid mobile work horse. I certainly would have said so. But I would happily switch to a MacBook Pro from 2016. I would say that having to restart X any time you want to switch between battery saving on-the-go, and multiple monitors when you're at your desk, is a hard fail.