7 ms·

An HTML file is not a program.

by sfoley 6y ago

peterwwillis 6y ago
It can receive input and create output. The browser is the interpreter for scripted HTML programs.
- smt88 6y ago
  HTML by itself can't receive input or create output. It is input/output. It can't run or be executed. It doesn't transform state or even have state. It's not Turing complete. HTML with either CSS3 or JavaScript is definitely a program, though.
  - morganvachon 6y ago
    "HTML by itself can't receive input or create output." So GET and POST are figments of my imagination then?
    - chillingeffect 6y ago
      Those are HTTP I believe.
      - Jarwain 6y ago
        Http verbs which can be sent from html
        smt88 6y ago
        Except that you can "run" (display) an HTML document without ever sending any HTTP requests. The HTML has no power to send one. It just tells you what happens if a user clicks a UI element. Saying that HTML can send HTTP messages is like saying that HATEOAS API responses[1] can send HTTP messages. They can't without a separate program (written in a non-HTML language) to interpret the HTML and send the message. 1. https://restfulapi.net/hateoas/ https://restfulapi.net/hateoas/
  - tzs 6y ago
    > HTML with either CSS3 or JavaScript is definitely a program, though Then so is something in HTML that doesn’t use CSS3 or JavaScript, for the same reason that a C program that contains no loops is still a program.
    - smt88 6y ago
      > for the same reason that a C program that contains no loops is still a program HTML is not "C without loops". It is, by definition, a subset of the string type. All HTML is a string, but not all strings are HTML. The following is valid C, but I would absolutely argue that it isn't a program: char str[] = "Geeks"; It's a declaration, just like HTML is. It is a string that is being declared and stored. Still, that C example is more of a program than any HTML is because it contains an instruction. It manipulates memory. HTML is literally just a file format. It is not any more of a program than a PNG file is.
  - echlebek 6y ago
    > HTML by itself can't receive input or create output. Neither can an ELF binary. It needs a loader to execute it. > It can't run or be executed. Yes it can, with a runtime that understands HTML. > It doesn't transform state or even have state. It's not Turing complete. That's not a requirement for a program.
    - smt88 6y ago
      So what is your definition of a program? It sounds like you're using a definition that's so broad, it would include image files, MP3s, and .gitignore.
      - username90 6y ago
        You can write an entire game like super mario in an html file. Is a super mario game not a program? And no, this is not an archaic way to use html files, it is pretty common to share smaller games as html files. You play them by loading them into your browser. Remember that html files are not just html. The way we use them today they are fully functional programs.
        smt88 6y ago
        You are arguing against a statement I didn't make. Look back at the last sentence of my original comment[1] where I distinguished HTML from HTML+CSS3+JS. It seems we agree that HTML (a language, not a file that also includes other languages) cannot create a game like Mario or even Pong. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24826670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24826670
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
parenthesis 6y ago
Why not?
jolux 6y ago
Wrong.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
gen_greyface 6y ago
why not? a html file is a set of instructions for the browsers render engine. That is enough for it to qualify as a program
- thomk 6y ago
  https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30719221/is-html-turing-complete https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30719221/is-html-turing-...
  - gen_greyface 6y ago
    does every program needs to be turing complete?
    - jolux 6y ago
      Only if you define programs as instructions for manipulating Turing machines.
      - nxrabl 6y ago
        To be pedantic, we can define a non-Turing-complete subset of a Turing machine's instruction set, and pass combinations of these instructions to the machine, and that could still be called a program.
    - dangerbird2 6y ago
      Not really, since programmable machines predate real-world turing-complete computers by at least a century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine
lkbm 6y ago
This is HTML+CSS. CSS3 is Turing Complete.
optimuspaul 6y ago
Of course it is, it is a collection of instructions that can be executed by a computer to perform a specific task. In this case the task is to display some data on a screen in a specific way. We need to stop arguing that HTML is not a programming language, it's silly and serves no purpose.
- s_dev 6y ago
  It's not programming language because it's a markup langauge. It's not turing complete. There are limits to the types of computation that can be performed with it. It's not silly -- it's a meaningful distinction.
  - chias 6y ago
    If you define a "program" as "a series of instructions to perform a task, where the instruction set is Turing Complete", then your statement is tautologically correct based on your definition. A much more general definition is simply "a series of instructions to perform a task". Do you feel that the former definition of the word "program" is the only one worth using? As an example: if you use a Game Maker application to construct a video game where your inputs are the graphics, the level design, and some basic scripting to connect them up, is the resulting output "not a program" because the input scheme that you used in order to define its behavior was not Turing Complete? You could make an argument that, in the context of Quines, this isn't relevant because the Program is not outputting its own source code but only the top-most layer of its definition, but then again that's true at some level for any Quine not written in machine code (and even then it'd probably be missing much of the OS / display drivers / etc.). Edit: removed an example about "programmable TV remotes" because it wasn't a very good example, and added a note about Quines.
    - s_dev 6y ago
      >"a series of instructions to perform a task" Limitations of those instructions is the key aspect. You couldn't use any English or natural language expression for example. It might seem obvious but complexity of those instructions is what makes the language abstract. Having complicated instructions isn't always desireable though e.g. the CISC vs RISC debate.

An HTML file is not a program.

by sfoley 6y ago

An HTML file is not a program.

peterwwillis 6y ago

It can receive input and create output. The browser is the interpreter for scripted HTML programs.

smt88 6y ago
HTML by itself can't receive input or create output. It is input/output. It can't run or be executed. It doesn't transform state or even have state. It's not Turing complete. HTML with either CSS3 or JavaScript is definitely a program, though.
- morganvachon 6y ago
  "HTML by itself can't receive input or create output." So GET and POST are figments of my imagination then?
  - chillingeffect 6y ago
    Those are HTTP I believe.
    - Jarwain 6y ago
      Http verbs which can be sent from html
      - smt88 6y ago
        Except that you can "run" (display) an HTML document without ever sending any HTTP requests. The HTML has no power to send one. It just tells you what happens if a user clicks a UI element. Saying that HTML can send HTTP messages is like saying that HATEOAS API responses[1] can send HTTP messages. They can't without a separate program (written in a non-HTML language) to interpret the HTML and send the message. 1. https://restfulapi.net/hateoas/ https://restfulapi.net/hateoas/
- tzs 6y ago
  > HTML with either CSS3 or JavaScript is definitely a program, though Then so is something in HTML that doesn’t use CSS3 or JavaScript, for the same reason that a C program that contains no loops is still a program.
  - smt88 6y ago
    > for the same reason that a C program that contains no loops is still a program HTML is not "C without loops". It is, by definition, a subset of the string type. All HTML is a string, but not all strings are HTML. The following is valid C, but I would absolutely argue that it isn't a program: char str[] = "Geeks"; It's a declaration, just like HTML is. It is a string that is being declared and stored. Still, that C example is more of a program than any HTML is because it contains an instruction. It manipulates memory. HTML is literally just a file format. It is not any more of a program than a PNG file is.
- echlebek 6y ago
  > HTML by itself can't receive input or create output. Neither can an ELF binary. It needs a loader to execute it. > It can't run or be executed. Yes it can, with a runtime that understands HTML. > It doesn't transform state or even have state. It's not Turing complete. That's not a requirement for a program.
  - smt88 6y ago
    So what is your definition of a program? It sounds like you're using a definition that's so broad, it would include image files, MP3s, and .gitignore.
    - username90 6y ago
      You can write an entire game like super mario in an html file. Is a super mario game not a program? And no, this is not an archaic way to use html files, it is pretty common to share smaller games as html files. You play them by loading them into your browser. Remember that html files are not just html. The way we use them today they are fully functional programs.
      - smt88 6y ago
        You are arguing against a statement I didn't make. Look back at the last sentence of my original comment[1] where I distinguished HTML from HTML+CSS3+JS. It seems we agree that HTML (a language, not a file that also includes other languages) cannot create a game like Mario or even Pong. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24826670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24826670
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

parenthesis 6y ago

Why not?

jolux 6y ago

Wrong.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

gen_greyface 6y ago

why not? a html file is a set of instructions for the browsers render engine. That is enough for it to qualify as a program

thomk 6y ago
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30719221/is-html-turing-complete https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30719221/is-html-turing-...
- gen_greyface 6y ago
  does every program needs to be turing complete?
  - jolux 6y ago
    Only if you define programs as instructions for manipulating Turing machines.
    - nxrabl 6y ago
      To be pedantic, we can define a non-Turing-complete subset of a Turing machine's instruction set, and pass combinations of these instructions to the machine, and that could still be called a program.
  - dangerbird2 6y ago
    Not really, since programmable machines predate real-world turing-complete computers by at least a century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine

lkbm 6y ago

This is HTML+CSS. CSS3 is Turing Complete.

optimuspaul 6y ago

Of course it is, it is a collection of instructions that can be executed by a computer to perform a specific task. In this case the task is to display some data on a screen in a specific way. We need to stop arguing that HTML is not a programming language, it's silly and serves no purpose.

s_dev 6y ago
It's not programming language because it's a markup langauge. It's not turing complete. There are limits to the types of computation that can be performed with it. It's not silly -- it's a meaningful distinction.
- chias 6y ago
  If you define a "program" as "a series of instructions to perform a task, where the instruction set is Turing Complete", then your statement is tautologically correct based on your definition. A much more general definition is simply "a series of instructions to perform a task". Do you feel that the former definition of the word "program" is the only one worth using? As an example: if you use a Game Maker application to construct a video game where your inputs are the graphics, the level design, and some basic scripting to connect them up, is the resulting output "not a program" because the input scheme that you used in order to define its behavior was not Turing Complete? You could make an argument that, in the context of Quines, this isn't relevant because the Program is not outputting its own source code but only the top-most layer of its definition, but then again that's true at some level for any Quine not written in machine code (and even then it'd probably be missing much of the OS / display drivers / etc.). Edit: removed an example about "programmable TV remotes" because it wasn't a very good example, and added a note about Quines.
  - s_dev 6y ago
    >"a series of instructions to perform a task" Limitations of those instructions is the key aspect. You couldn't use any English or natural language expression for example. It might seem obvious but complexity of those instructions is what makes the language abstract. Having complicated instructions isn't always desireable though e.g. the CISC vs RISC debate.