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That's depending on what you consider a "performance enhancing substance". With basic food and drinks, we surely all agree that that's not the case. But the lin

That's depending on what you consider a "performance enhancing substance". With basic food and drinks, we surely all agree that that's not the case. But the line starts to get blurry with supplements. Whey? Creatine? Caffeine? Supplement stores are full of this stuff, and a lot is really just a waste of money and exists to milk the amateur gym bro cash cow. But some of those things help. And eventually you cross the line into forbidden territory. That line is a clear one. If you take that line, then no, not every athlete takes performance enhancing substances. But if you count, say, caffeine, then yes, most athletes do. And non-athletes too, FWIW.

throwaway744678 6y ago
Well, the line still seems blurry regarding medicines that athletes are allowed to take if they have a specific conditions... For instance, a lot of pro cyclists seem to suffer from asthma (40% vs 8% in the general population)!
- Someone 6y ago
  “Exercise-induced asthma” is common in many endurance sports, especially winter sports. https://theconversation.com/winter-olympics-why-many-athletes-will-be-struggling-with-asthma-90400 https://theconversation.com/winter-olympics-why-many-athlete...: “Exercise-induced asthma is the most common medical problem among winter Olympic athletes, especially among cross-country skiers. Nearly 50% of these athletes suffer from the condition, closely followed by short-track speed skaters at 43%. For figure skaters it’s 21%, Nordic combined it’s 17%, and for ice hockey it’s 15%. By comparison, around 9% of the UK general population suffers from asthma.”
  - jellicle 6y ago
    You're proving rather than disproving the point. The situation is something like "huh, a whole lot of Vietnam draftees seem to suffer from flat feet, somehow our drafting algorithm must have pulled in more flat feet people than exist in the entire population". None of these guys have asthma: http://www.granfondoguide.com/Contents/Index/3488/dick-pound-a-third-of-team-skys-riders-are-asthmatic http://www.granfondoguide.com/Contents/Index/3488/dick-pound...
  - LeifCarrotson 6y ago
    As an (ex) XC runner who has done thousands of miles in the cold and snow, the word "normally" in that article's pivotal sentence, "This can cause the smooth muscle in the airway to narrow, reducing the athletes’ ability to breathe normally" is a bit of a stretch. It's like saying these athletes all have "exercise-induced tachycardia" because their heart rate goes up when they compete. Responding to dry, cold air with narrowed airways is normal. I don't dispute that some respond to it worse than others and need medication to come back to the default response, but it's easy to stretch that diagnosis and take salbutamol until you're better than the baseline. My lungs are currently in the annual process of acclimating to the newly cold fall air. Every year for decades I've been running in October and there are a couple weeks when the temperature crashes from the last encore of summer at 60F/15C seemingly overnight to frosty mornings and 40F/5C runs and the leaves change. I can feel that my legs are fine but I'm breathing harder than usual, and I can literally see on my Garmin that my average pace has decreased but my heart rate is unchanged or elevated. By November my VO2 max will be up a bit and my pace will be mostly back to normal. Does it feel like I'm breathing through a slimy straw on those first frosty mornings? Yes. Am I in danger of asphyxiating from it? No, and I think that's a critical distinction - some of my friends are, they should use an inhaler to counteract their body's over reaction to the conditions. Can I get over it without medication? Yes. Would I be faster if I had blood salbutamol levels of 800 ug/L instead of 0 and an unrestricted airway? Yes, whether I used it in training to work out at a higher level than I otherwise could, raced with it, or both. I'd be interested in an analysis of those cross-country skiers if they compared the mucus and muscle response of the undiagnosed and diagnosed athletes with and without their inhalers. Do an EVH test and take an ultrasound of the larynx/trachea to measure smooth muscle constriction and mucus production after 15 minutes on the treadmill at 68F/20C and 50% RH, open the door and do it at 32F/0C and 5% RH, then take a hit of an inhaler and do both again (with appropriate breaks between tests). It could also be interesting to look at the responses of non-winter-sport athletes transplanted from warmer climates versus those who have been working out in those conditions for a few months. It would be hypocritical not to admit that I occasionally take a pseudoephedrine throughout the fall because my nasal mucus membranes get more productive when raking dusty leaves or running through fields of ragweed - which is, again, pretty normal. To me, the main difference is that suffering through the snot doesn't lead to overcoming it, it's just gross and annoying.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  In the Salazar circle, TUE's for asthma were downright endemic. Everyone knows what's going on, you just need to catch these guys. We got Salazar, and most of his athletes know in the back of their minds we'll get them sooner or later.
the-dude 6y ago
Let's take hormones. Once upon a time there is an athlete who has naturally high level of certain hormone. Research is conducted and the anti-doping agency moves up the level of how much the hormone is legal to have in the blood. Now all competitors will take additional hormones to reach, but not cross said level. As long as this works, they think of themselves as not doping and levelling the playing field. But they are taking hormones.
- kgran 6y ago
  See: World Athletics Female Eligibility Regulations on testosterone levels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Athletics_Female_Eligibility_Regulations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Athletics_Female_Eligibi... Case of Caster Semenya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
- wildmanx 6y ago
  Morally, taking that hormone is still wrong. And so should it be according to the rules too. If you now answer that it's unfair that the person with naturally occurring higher levels can have it but those with lower levels can't "level" the playing field, well, tough luck. That's just the lottery that gives some people an advantage in certain sports. We all accept that some people are naturally tall and therefore have advantages in basketball. Or some people have naturally stronger VO2 max and thereby advantages in endurance sports. The competition is how far you can get with the _natural state_ of your body, plus training. Not how far you can get as long as everybody pumps some substances up to a previously-agreed-upon threshold. Those thresholds are just the sad plan-B solution of anti-doping agencies if they can't directly measure doping substances and need to resort to measuring the effects instead. That actually disadvantages those with naturally higher effects. Nobody would think of restricting maximum leg length, and as long as your legs are not longer than that it's fine to surgically extend them.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    So why do we have different leagues for men and women then?
alasdair_ 6y ago
> With basic food and drinks, we surely all agree that that's not the case. It’s worth noting here that the first Olympic doping suspension was for drinking a beer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Olympic_Games https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Olympic_Games

throwaway744678 6y ago

Well, the line still seems blurry regarding medicines that athletes are allowed to take if they have a specific conditions... For instance, a lot of pro cyclists seem to suffer from asthma (40% vs 8% in the general population)!

Someone 6y ago
“Exercise-induced asthma” is common in many endurance sports, especially winter sports. https://theconversation.com/winter-olympics-why-many-athletes-will-be-struggling-with-asthma-90400 https://theconversation.com/winter-olympics-why-many-athlete...: “Exercise-induced asthma is the most common medical problem among winter Olympic athletes, especially among cross-country skiers. Nearly 50% of these athletes suffer from the condition, closely followed by short-track speed skaters at 43%. For figure skaters it’s 21%, Nordic combined it’s 17%, and for ice hockey it’s 15%. By comparison, around 9% of the UK general population suffers from asthma.”
- jellicle 6y ago
  You're proving rather than disproving the point. The situation is something like "huh, a whole lot of Vietnam draftees seem to suffer from flat feet, somehow our drafting algorithm must have pulled in more flat feet people than exist in the entire population". None of these guys have asthma: http://www.granfondoguide.com/Contents/Index/3488/dick-pound-a-third-of-team-skys-riders-are-asthmatic http://www.granfondoguide.com/Contents/Index/3488/dick-pound...
- LeifCarrotson 6y ago
  As an (ex) XC runner who has done thousands of miles in the cold and snow, the word "normally" in that article's pivotal sentence, "This can cause the smooth muscle in the airway to narrow, reducing the athletes’ ability to breathe normally" is a bit of a stretch. It's like saying these athletes all have "exercise-induced tachycardia" because their heart rate goes up when they compete. Responding to dry, cold air with narrowed airways is normal. I don't dispute that some respond to it worse than others and need medication to come back to the default response, but it's easy to stretch that diagnosis and take salbutamol until you're better than the baseline. My lungs are currently in the annual process of acclimating to the newly cold fall air. Every year for decades I've been running in October and there are a couple weeks when the temperature crashes from the last encore of summer at 60F/15C seemingly overnight to frosty mornings and 40F/5C runs and the leaves change. I can feel that my legs are fine but I'm breathing harder than usual, and I can literally see on my Garmin that my average pace has decreased but my heart rate is unchanged or elevated. By November my VO2 max will be up a bit and my pace will be mostly back to normal. Does it feel like I'm breathing through a slimy straw on those first frosty mornings? Yes. Am I in danger of asphyxiating from it? No, and I think that's a critical distinction - some of my friends are, they should use an inhaler to counteract their body's over reaction to the conditions. Can I get over it without medication? Yes. Would I be faster if I had blood salbutamol levels of 800 ug/L instead of 0 and an unrestricted airway? Yes, whether I used it in training to work out at a higher level than I otherwise could, raced with it, or both. I'd be interested in an analysis of those cross-country skiers if they compared the mucus and muscle response of the undiagnosed and diagnosed athletes with and without their inhalers. Do an EVH test and take an ultrasound of the larynx/trachea to measure smooth muscle constriction and mucus production after 15 minutes on the treadmill at 68F/20C and 50% RH, open the door and do it at 32F/0C and 5% RH, then take a hit of an inhaler and do both again (with appropriate breaks between tests). It could also be interesting to look at the responses of non-winter-sport athletes transplanted from warmer climates versus those who have been working out in those conditions for a few months. It would be hypocritical not to admit that I occasionally take a pseudoephedrine throughout the fall because my nasal mucus membranes get more productive when raking dusty leaves or running through fields of ragweed - which is, again, pretty normal. To me, the main difference is that suffering through the snot doesn't lead to overcoming it, it's just gross and annoying.
bilbo0s 6y ago
In the Salazar circle, TUE's for asthma were downright endemic. Everyone knows what's going on, you just need to catch these guys. We got Salazar, and most of his athletes know in the back of their minds we'll get them sooner or later.

the-dude 6y ago

Let's take hormones. Once upon a time there is an athlete who has naturally high level of certain hormone. Research is conducted and the anti-doping agency moves up the level of how much the hormone is legal to have in the blood. Now all competitors will take additional hormones to reach, but not cross said level. As long as this works, they think of themselves as not doping and levelling the playing field. But they are taking hormones.

kgran 6y ago
See: World Athletics Female Eligibility Regulations on testosterone levels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Athletics_Female_Eligibility_Regulations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Athletics_Female_Eligibi... Case of Caster Semenya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
wildmanx 6y ago
Morally, taking that hormone is still wrong. And so should it be according to the rules too. If you now answer that it's unfair that the person with naturally occurring higher levels can have it but those with lower levels can't "level" the playing field, well, tough luck. That's just the lottery that gives some people an advantage in certain sports. We all accept that some people are naturally tall and therefore have advantages in basketball. Or some people have naturally stronger VO2 max and thereby advantages in endurance sports. The competition is how far you can get with the _natural state_ of your body, plus training. Not how far you can get as long as everybody pumps some substances up to a previously-agreed-upon threshold. Those thresholds are just the sad plan-B solution of anti-doping agencies if they can't directly measure doping substances and need to resort to measuring the effects instead. That actually disadvantages those with naturally higher effects. Nobody would think of restricting maximum leg length, and as long as your legs are not longer than that it's fine to surgically extend them.
- the-dude 6y ago
  So why do we have different leagues for men and women then?

alasdair_ 6y ago

> With basic food and drinks, we surely all agree that that's not the case. It’s worth noting here that the first Olympic doping suspension was for drinking a beer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Olympic_Games https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Olympic_Games