10 ms·

Why I've stopped saying 'hey guys' (as a male in tech)

24 points by tomquirk 6y ago

heyoo 6y ago
Fine - but what do I say instead then?
- bruceb 6y ago
  Hey ya’ll, Hey everyone
- tomquirk 6y ago
  So many words! This tweet covers some great alternatives: https://twitter.com/techseowomen/status/1317545475021701126 https://twitter.com/techseowomen/status/1317545475021701126
  - gtmoose 6y ago
    WTF is a WTSer?
- thrownaway954 6y ago
  love how you get downvoted for asking a legitimate question. this is EXACTLY why this topic is toxic and literally exists for shaming.
- valbaca 6y ago
  - folks - friends - team - people - y'all - everyone
- RhysU 6y ago
  Omnes
tomquirk 6y ago
Hey everyone, OP here. I know this can be a somewhat controversial topic, so I'm keen to hear your perspectives on inclusive language and inclusion in general. Thanks for stumbling upon my post :)
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Your behavior change is fine, and you're free to modify your own behavior if you'd like obviously. You never said it, but where many people go wrong is when they say "I'm modifying my behavior to avoid any potential for a perceived slight, and you should too." Such behavior policing is toxic. I used to have a severe anxiety disorder that partly stemmed from being overly sensitive about what other people thought about me. I had to consciously dampen down that part of myself, and I feel much, much better about it. I think instead of getting individuals to avoid offending others, we should instead foster a mentality of resiliency. People get offended far too easily nowadays. They should learn how to stop caring so much about what other people think. Of course there's a line beyond which you're just a jerk, but to me, just saying "hey guys" doesn't cross it. But that's just me, and I'm in a region of the country where "hey guys" is acceptable.
- cechmaster 6y ago
  The webster dictionary literally says: Guys - PERSON —used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex.
  - onecommentman 6y ago
    A proper use of the rhetorical device of an “appeal to authority.” Thanks.
- Kednicma 6y ago
  "guy" comes from the ancient Roman names "Gaius" and "Gaia". Note carefully how the one name had two gendered forms since ancient Latin is gendered. As a Lojban speaker, it is incredibly tiring to listen to English-only speakers whine about how gendered their language is. You want everybody to change how they talk, but still talk English; what a half-measure! There is no such thing as a good person. Your misandry blinds you to this fact.
  - dang 6y ago
    This comment breaks the site guidelines badly. Ideological flamebait, name-calling, and (especially) personal attacks will get you banned here. We've had to warn you before. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting, which means editing out any swipes that make it into your comments? On the other hand, I just looked at your recent comment history and am pleased to see a lot of mostly substantive comments there. Thank you for that. If you'd just be careful to take out the swipes (as in the last paragraph of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24813852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24813852), the problem would be solved. We'd appreciate that. p.s. Your etymological claim is incorrect according to Etymonline: https://www.etymonline.com/word/guy#etymonline_v_14401 https://www.etymonline.com/word/guy#etymonline_v_14401
bruceb 6y ago
Well the mods seems to haves nuked this from the front page. Lame.
lostgame 6y ago
/u/tomquirk - thanks so kindly for posting this. As a trans woman in IT I couldn’t appreciate this post more at this time, nor do I think it’s ever been more relevant. Might I suggest you consider adding - and I put here for HN’s convenience as well — a list of potential great alternatives? :) ‘Hey folks’ ‘Hey everyone’ ‘Hey y’all’ ‘Hey team:’ Even just ‘Hey -‘ I also like ‘Good morning’, ‘Good afternoon’, ‘Good evening’, they’re great ways to inclusively greet people and start a conversation as well. Thanks again for posting this! :)
- tomquirk 6y ago
  I'm so glad you feel this way! And thanks for your suggestion. I'll definitely do a follow-up post on good alternatives to commonly used non-inclusive phrases. This tweet by the Women in Tech SEO community covers some great alternatives to "guys" - https://twitter.com/techseowomen/status/1317545475021701126 https://twitter.com/techseowomen/status/1317545475021701126 reply
  - onecommentman 6y ago
    If a person unfamiliar with the nuances of American culture tried using some of these terms in the wrong context or with the wrong audience, it could be a real social train wreck (pals?). Using some of these terms could just be signaling that you and your group must be native born American. Also no one over the age of 50 should be seen topless in public or ever refer to a group of people as “peeps”, “fam”, “party people” or “superstars”. Did this community mean to be so Ageist and Nativist. (See how hard this is.)
gtmoose 6y ago
If your primary example is the word 'guys', do you really think your second best replacement is the word 'persons'? Also, I think it's hilarious that a team would pay 15 dollars a month for such a simple tool.
cooljacob204 6y ago
This one was always a tricky one for me, trying to create an email to a bunch of people in a friendly manner without using 'hey guys.' It the phrase that feels the most natural to me when speaking to group of people. I personally have always views 'guys' as inclusive of anyone, but I get others may not. Professionally I have opted to use 'hey all' in 90% of situations because it's about as neutral as you can get. Doesn't feel as natural to me but then I don't run the risk of offending anyone.
- adrian17 6y ago
  > It the phrase that feels the most natural to me when speaking to group of people. Dictionaries seem to agree: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/guy https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/guy "used to address a group of people of either sex"
  - 0x008 6y ago
    While dictionaries are guidelines as to what is accepted use of a language, these accepted uses and dictionaries are no laws. A dictionary is only a snapshot of the rules which society agreed upon in the past and thus will certainly be changed in future.
    - hackeraccount 6y ago
      So we're deciding right now that "guys" is a group of men? Why are we deciding to have the least inclusive possible meaning?
      - JacobSuperslav 6y ago
        Because I don't know about you, the word guy sounds masculine to me.
josefresco 6y ago
"My late teens and early 20’s were influenced by the so-called Intellectual Dark Web - Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, Sam Harris and the like." Given your influences, I'm amazed you've not only recognized this issue, but chose to address it. Even the most liberal among my peers (who are older and grew up without them) hasn't taken this stance. I wonder how you broke free of the "edgelord" bubble and gained this perspective.
josefresco 6y ago
I coached girls recreation basketball and found it weird (after a lifetime of playing basketball) to say "guard your man" or "find your man" etc. "guard your woman" and "guard your girl" also didn't "sound right" although that could be as a result of my bias.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  When Star Trek first used "...where no one has gone before," it sounded very weird to me. Now it sounds right, and hearing the original series "...where no man has gone before" sounds weird. Call it bias, call it familiarity, it's probably something like that.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Interesting one. Would "foe" work?
  - neonate 6y ago
    Nobody uses "foe" that way, at least not in whatever dialect of English I speak. "Opponent" might work.
- onecommentman 6y ago
  Maybe you should talk to a former Marine Drill Instructor to get some creative alternatives...
thrownaway954 6y ago
please... please stop. i really don't care for all this inclusive language crap and all it is is an attempt to shame people. if you get that easily offended by the way people talk you need to look deep at yourself and see what is the true reason for it. maybe you have deep down self trauma, anger issues or something else that needs to be sort out in therapy. btw... there is _nothing_ wrong in admitting that you have a problem and getting help for it. what's even funnier is that this whole inclusive language shaming is something i only see in the tech world. perhaps this is because this industry is more ego centric than any other industry, i don't know, but i know a slew of people in the financial world who roll their eyes every time i have conversations about this.
- tomquirk 6y ago
  I appreciate your opinion. And maybe there is some truth to your statement. But in the professional context, none of that really matters IMO. If someone in your team is offended (and yes, it might seem stupid to you), then the dynamic of the team is thrown off. And ultimately, productivity suffers. That's how I'm thinking about it these days.
  - justiceforsaas 6y ago
    If you have a member in your team who's offended because of "guys" in "hey guys", then you need to question your hiring process, not the team dynamics. I found that the fact these people get offended by such issues says more about themselves than the fact "guys" is sexist in some way.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - thrownaway954 6y ago
    i would rather offend one person than cater to one person. if everyone else is fun loving and easy going, you do the entire team an injustice by pandering to one toxic person and keeping them on the team... get rid of them. that is what a professional does... professionals value the team more than one person. one person can be replaced easily, a team cannot.
JackFr 6y ago
He bury's the lede until the penultimate paragraph: > I built a Slack app to help. AllyBot will suggest inclusive alternatives to over 400 non-inclusive phrases to team members. https://allybot.io/#pricing https://allybot.io/#pricing
- hedberg10 6y ago
  Not bad. If you can't beat them, join'em. Given the idiocy of SocJus, you should squeeze every $ out of them. How about gender neutral hosting, or racially conscious datalakes for a slight surcharge?
- thrownaway954 6y ago
  ah... so now we know the really for all this fuss from the author. it has nothing to do with respect for others and all about creating a market sell his product.
xiphias2 6y ago
I remember when the big all hands meetings started to start with ,,hey team''. It was strange and unnatural to me. For me a team is a group of about 5 people working together to achieve a clear goal, going to lunch together almost every day, having coffee together, while talking about solving deep technical issues. It doesn't scale to more than 8 people, because I'm just not able to understand deeply what more than 8 people are doing, and follow their code base. It was the same time when all hands meetings got political and uninteresting, skipping all the technical details on announcements that made them interesting (and that made cross-team collaboration possible), and I just stopped going to these meetings, because they started to be just a waste of my time.
hirundo 6y ago
> What is often overlooked about Jordan Peterson’s views on the subject is that he is totally on board with using inclusive language in a private context. He just doesn’t want it to be legally enforced. This is an important distinction. I much appreciate the author emphasizing this point, because I think it's crucial and often missed. It's perfectly fine for people to use language that they feel is more inclusive, but not so fine when they try to enforce the boundaries, particularly at the point of a gun, which all laws imply. But I think that distinction should extend to non-legal "policing". If I say "guys" or "mankind" in a sense that is meant to be inclusive, but someone else interprets that as not inclusive, I don't feel responsible for their interpretation, any more than I would feel responsible for someone's misinterpretation of "niggardly". They can choose to be offended, but if that clearly was not my intent, I don't feel the need to accommodate them. I've found that some people have a desire, even a mission to feel offended, and don't feel that it helps either of us to tiptoe around their neurosis. Because of the seemingly infinite flexibility of their offense taking, I couldn't fail to offend no matter how much I tried, and I've learned that by trying and trying and trying. If I say a phrase that has long meant "all of you", but you have now decided means "all of you males", then I don't think I'm responsible for your offense taking. I think you're responsible for purposely redefining the clear meaning to score some kind of points.
lostgame 6y ago
Why on earth is this flagged? This is such an important discussion. I'm also shocked by the folks here who feel they're too special to respect other people with language. I expected better of this community.
- kevmoo1 6y ago
  Amen. Should NOT be flagged. Be professional. Be respectful. Be thoughtful. Be flexible. Be kind. It is NOT asking too much. This is a pretty low bar – especially for "smart" people.
- effingwewt 6y ago
  Your very comment espouses everything wromg with this. You feel it's important, so it must be. Then you use the derogatory term 'snowflake', only you twist its meaning to call out people for not bowing to your whims, to me you are the one thinking they are special, and are too much a 'snowflake' to see the other side of the argument. There is a huge difference between giving and taking offense.
- thrownaway954 6y ago
  cause he is selling a product based around this and the submitted title doesn't even mention this. its a bait and switch.
insickness 6y ago
I have no problem calling someone by their preferred gender term and including gender-neutral language. The problem I have is that there is an ever-growing, constantly-changing secret set of rules created, not as much to make people feel better, but in order to purposefully shame those who's viewpoints differ from the current political viewpoint that all human interaction is steeped in racism/sexism/bigotry. The day after the Amy Coney Barrett used the term 'sexual preference,' Merriam-Webster Dictionary updated it to say it is offensive. https://www.newsweek.com/amy-coney-barrett-preference-definition-1539088 https://www.newsweek.com/amy-coney-barrett-preference-defini... Are these rules really improving society or are they just being weaponized to impose a political doctrine?
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  Honestly I think it's an arcane set of rules that's meant to cement and elevate the position of the managerial/upper-class and ignore "the barbarians". As much as the left claims to love the working class, all this cancellation stuff and hyper-sensitivity effectively disowns and demonizes the entire working class (idk, at least in my experience doing blue collar stuff, pretty much everyone I know in the city now would have an aneurysm sitting around a lunch trunk at break).
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    So would a worker sitting in a "sprint retro"
dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
It really depends on the person. I was once working in a an almost exclusively female envirinment and it wasn't rare to receive these "Hey, Ladies" e-mails, especially when the person replying didn't bother to check the guge Cc: list for the existence of the only male employee. What did I feel then? Amusement. I'd sometimes reply in jest something about "just our girly things" and the author usually apologized "oh I'm sorry, I didn't notice you on Cc:" which was even more amusing since I didn't really feel there's anything to apologize for.
bloqs 6y ago
Im expecting some absurd woke virtue signalling and was not disappointed
hackeraccount 6y ago
Why is it difficult to consider that guys is not the plural of guy? Or that girl is not a perfect analog of boy? I understand the logic of "it's not how you mean it but rather how I take it" but at some point people are going to start to think this isn't how you take but some sort of ideological power play.
valbaca 6y ago
None of this is new despite everyone's insistence that it is. We learned in letter-writing that if you don't know who might read it, then you start with "To whom it may concern:"
- onecommentman 6y ago
  It could be cute to acronymize “To whom it may concern” to Twimc (hard c) and introduce it into normal speech. “Hey, twimks, want to get some pizza...”
mcphage 6y ago
I've got mixed feelings about this one. On one hand, I'm definitely fine with seeking to reduce uncomfortable terms in my speech. On the other, looking at how "guys" is used, it seems clear that it's in the process of becoming de-gendered. It isn't entirely, yet, but it's almost completely there. And in general, stepping into the path of language change seems a fool's errand; it's going to happen whether we want it to or not. So trying to force "guys" to stay gendered when it's in the process of changing seems like an exercise in futility. Similar to those people who reject "singular they" or "literally meaning figuratively". Those changes happened hundreds of years ago, yet there are still people trying to fight those fights. "de-gendered guys" at least is still in progress, so I'll give it that—but I'm pretty sure that the outcome is not in doubt.
bbg215 6y ago
I used to have a bad habit of saying "thanks man" and "hey guys" regardless of who I was talking to. In all cases it was more due to laziness and habit than anything else and I was somewhat unaware of it. It wasn't hard to change, with the main benefit being I no longer came off like a complete dumbass to a room full of women or a trans person.
anotherevan 6y ago
Thanks all y’all for y’all. I’m taking y’all. I love y’all. Because “y’all” is the best, most inclusive second-person, plural pronoun in the English-speaking world. Thank you, the South. What an ally. — Hannah Gadsby, Douglas
- RhysU 6y ago
  Except y'all can be dismissive or insulting depending upon context. Let's go y'all (idiots)!
  - soganess 6y ago
    > Let's go y'all (idiots)! I have never thought/heard of it that way? Could you provide some context?
    - RhysU 6y ago
      I am unable to find something quotable to back me up. So, I can only offer my personal take. I lived in Austin from 2004 until 2014. Not a Texan by any stretch. When a member of a group says y'all to the group it is warm. When an outsider says y'all to a group it can be pejorative. Compare the following in both senses: "Let's get it together y'all!" In the first sense, it is a rallying cry. In the second sense, the speaker may think you aren't trying hard enough. There, "y'all" was added only to put some stank on the sentence. The pejorative may be limited to the end of the sentence. As in: Think! vs Think Y'all!
      - soganess 6y ago
        OOOOOOOh, I know what you mean now! It is an in-group thing. I experienced a less subtle version of that with my usage of "howdy". Context: I wasn't born in the US, but was only 4 when we immigrated. For whatever reason young me gravitated toward "howdy" as my greeting. Probably just my young love of westerns; regardless, "howdy" has always been my informal "yo". Anyway, my first few months in the South, local would ask me if I was making fun of them when I said "Howdy all" / "Howdy guys." Same way I've always said it. Now it was rare, but I would hear locals say "howdy" on occasion without ridicule. Something about my saying it caught a weary eye. When I'm down South now, I just say "Hi". Weirdly, no one else has ever mentioned it.

24 points by tomquirk 6y ago

heyoo 6y ago

Fine - but what do I say instead then?

bruceb 6y ago
Hey ya’ll, Hey everyone
tomquirk 6y ago
So many words! This tweet covers some great alternatives: https://twitter.com/techseowomen/status/1317545475021701126 https://twitter.com/techseowomen/status/1317545475021701126
- gtmoose 6y ago
  WTF is a WTSer?
thrownaway954 6y ago
love how you get downvoted for asking a legitimate question. this is EXACTLY why this topic is toxic and literally exists for shaming.
valbaca 6y ago
- folks - friends - team - people - y'all - everyone
RhysU 6y ago
Omnes

tomquirk 6y ago

Hey everyone, OP here. I know this can be a somewhat controversial topic, so I'm keen to hear your perspectives on inclusive language and inclusion in general. Thanks for stumbling upon my post :)

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
Your behavior change is fine, and you're free to modify your own behavior if you'd like obviously. You never said it, but where many people go wrong is when they say "I'm modifying my behavior to avoid any potential for a perceived slight, and you should too." Such behavior policing is toxic. I used to have a severe anxiety disorder that partly stemmed from being overly sensitive about what other people thought about me. I had to consciously dampen down that part of myself, and I feel much, much better about it. I think instead of getting individuals to avoid offending others, we should instead foster a mentality of resiliency. People get offended far too easily nowadays. They should learn how to stop caring so much about what other people think. Of course there's a line beyond which you're just a jerk, but to me, just saying "hey guys" doesn't cross it. But that's just me, and I'm in a region of the country where "hey guys" is acceptable.
cechmaster 6y ago
The webster dictionary literally says: Guys - PERSON —used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex.
- onecommentman 6y ago
  A proper use of the rhetorical device of an “appeal to authority.” Thanks.
Kednicma 6y ago
"guy" comes from the ancient Roman names "Gaius" and "Gaia". Note carefully how the one name had two gendered forms since ancient Latin is gendered. As a Lojban speaker, it is incredibly tiring to listen to English-only speakers whine about how gendered their language is. You want everybody to change how they talk, but still talk English; what a half-measure! There is no such thing as a good person. Your misandry blinds you to this fact.
- dang 6y ago
  This comment breaks the site guidelines badly. Ideological flamebait, name-calling, and (especially) personal attacks will get you banned here. We've had to warn you before. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting, which means editing out any swipes that make it into your comments? On the other hand, I just looked at your recent comment history and am pleased to see a lot of mostly substantive comments there. Thank you for that. If you'd just be careful to take out the swipes (as in the last paragraph of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24813852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24813852), the problem would be solved. We'd appreciate that. p.s. Your etymological claim is incorrect according to Etymonline: https://www.etymonline.com/word/guy#etymonline_v_14401 https://www.etymonline.com/word/guy#etymonline_v_14401

bruceb 6y ago

Well the mods seems to haves nuked this from the front page. Lame.

lostgame 6y ago

/u/tomquirk - thanks so kindly for posting this. As a trans woman in IT I couldn’t appreciate this post more at this time, nor do I think it’s ever been more relevant. Might I suggest you consider adding - and I put here for HN’s convenience as well — a list of potential great alternatives? :) ‘Hey folks’ ‘Hey everyone’ ‘Hey y’all’ ‘Hey team:’ Even just ‘Hey -‘ I also like ‘Good morning’, ‘Good afternoon’, ‘Good evening’, they’re great ways to inclusively greet people and start a conversation as well. Thanks again for posting this! :)

tomquirk 6y ago
I'm so glad you feel this way! And thanks for your suggestion. I'll definitely do a follow-up post on good alternatives to commonly used non-inclusive phrases. This tweet by the Women in Tech SEO community covers some great alternatives to "guys" - https://twitter.com/techseowomen/status/1317545475021701126 https://twitter.com/techseowomen/status/1317545475021701126 reply
- onecommentman 6y ago
  If a person unfamiliar with the nuances of American culture tried using some of these terms in the wrong context or with the wrong audience, it could be a real social train wreck (pals?). Using some of these terms could just be signaling that you and your group must be native born American. Also no one over the age of 50 should be seen topless in public or ever refer to a group of people as “peeps”, “fam”, “party people” or “superstars”. Did this community mean to be so Ageist and Nativist. (See how hard this is.)

gtmoose 6y ago

If your primary example is the word 'guys', do you really think your second best replacement is the word 'persons'? Also, I think it's hilarious that a team would pay 15 dollars a month for such a simple tool.

cooljacob204 6y ago

This one was always a tricky one for me, trying to create an email to a bunch of people in a friendly manner without using 'hey guys.' It the phrase that feels the most natural to me when speaking to group of people. I personally have always views 'guys' as inclusive of anyone, but I get others may not. Professionally I have opted to use 'hey all' in 90% of situations because it's about as neutral as you can get. Doesn't feel as natural to me but then I don't run the risk of offending anyone.

adrian17 6y ago
> It the phrase that feels the most natural to me when speaking to group of people. Dictionaries seem to agree: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/guy https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/guy "used to address a group of people of either sex"
- 0x008 6y ago
  While dictionaries are guidelines as to what is accepted use of a language, these accepted uses and dictionaries are no laws. A dictionary is only a snapshot of the rules which society agreed upon in the past and thus will certainly be changed in future.
  - hackeraccount 6y ago
    So we're deciding right now that "guys" is a group of men? Why are we deciding to have the least inclusive possible meaning?
    - JacobSuperslav 6y ago
      Because I don't know about you, the word guy sounds masculine to me.

josefresco 6y ago

"My late teens and early 20’s were influenced by the so-called Intellectual Dark Web - Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, Sam Harris and the like." Given your influences, I'm amazed you've not only recognized this issue, but chose to address it. Even the most liberal among my peers (who are older and grew up without them) hasn't taken this stance. I wonder how you broke free of the "edgelord" bubble and gained this perspective.

josefresco 6y ago

I coached girls recreation basketball and found it weird (after a lifetime of playing basketball) to say "guard your man" or "find your man" etc. "guard your woman" and "guard your girl" also didn't "sound right" although that could be as a result of my bias.

pwinnski 6y ago
When Star Trek first used "...where no one has gone before," it sounded very weird to me. Now it sounds right, and hearing the original series "...where no man has gone before" sounds weird. Call it bias, call it familiarity, it's probably something like that.
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
Interesting one. Would "foe" work?
- neonate 6y ago
  Nobody uses "foe" that way, at least not in whatever dialect of English I speak. "Opponent" might work.
onecommentman 6y ago
Maybe you should talk to a former Marine Drill Instructor to get some creative alternatives...

thrownaway954 6y ago

please... please stop. i really don't care for all this inclusive language crap and all it is is an attempt to shame people. if you get that easily offended by the way people talk you need to look deep at yourself and see what is the true reason for it. maybe you have deep down self trauma, anger issues or something else that needs to be sort out in therapy. btw... there is _nothing_ wrong in admitting that you have a problem and getting help for it. what's even funnier is that this whole inclusive language shaming is something i only see in the tech world. perhaps this is because this industry is more ego centric than any other industry, i don't know, but i know a slew of people in the financial world who roll their eyes every time i have conversations about this.

tomquirk 6y ago
I appreciate your opinion. And maybe there is some truth to your statement. But in the professional context, none of that really matters IMO. If someone in your team is offended (and yes, it might seem stupid to you), then the dynamic of the team is thrown off. And ultimately, productivity suffers. That's how I'm thinking about it these days.
- justiceforsaas 6y ago
  If you have a member in your team who's offended because of "guys" in "hey guys", then you need to question your hiring process, not the team dynamics. I found that the fact these people get offended by such issues says more about themselves than the fact "guys" is sexist in some way.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- thrownaway954 6y ago
  i would rather offend one person than cater to one person. if everyone else is fun loving and easy going, you do the entire team an injustice by pandering to one toxic person and keeping them on the team... get rid of them. that is what a professional does... professionals value the team more than one person. one person can be replaced easily, a team cannot.

JackFr 6y ago

He bury's the lede until the penultimate paragraph: > I built a Slack app to help. AllyBot will suggest inclusive alternatives to over 400 non-inclusive phrases to team members. https://allybot.io/#pricing https://allybot.io/#pricing

hedberg10 6y ago
Not bad. If you can't beat them, join'em. Given the idiocy of SocJus, you should squeeze every $ out of them. How about gender neutral hosting, or racially conscious datalakes for a slight surcharge?
thrownaway954 6y ago
ah... so now we know the really for all this fuss from the author. it has nothing to do with respect for others and all about creating a market sell his product.

xiphias2 6y ago

I remember when the big all hands meetings started to start with ,,hey team''. It was strange and unnatural to me. For me a team is a group of about 5 people working together to achieve a clear goal, going to lunch together almost every day, having coffee together, while talking about solving deep technical issues. It doesn't scale to more than 8 people, because I'm just not able to understand deeply what more than 8 people are doing, and follow their code base. It was the same time when all hands meetings got political and uninteresting, skipping all the technical details on announcements that made them interesting (and that made cross-team collaboration possible), and I just stopped going to these meetings, because they started to be just a waste of my time.

hirundo 6y ago

> What is often overlooked about Jordan Peterson’s views on the subject is that he is totally on board with using inclusive language in a private context. He just doesn’t want it to be legally enforced. This is an important distinction. I much appreciate the author emphasizing this point, because I think it's crucial and often missed. It's perfectly fine for people to use language that they feel is more inclusive, but not so fine when they try to enforce the boundaries, particularly at the point of a gun, which all laws imply. But I think that distinction should extend to non-legal "policing". If I say "guys" or "mankind" in a sense that is meant to be inclusive, but someone else interprets that as not inclusive, I don't feel responsible for their interpretation, any more than I would feel responsible for someone's misinterpretation of "niggardly". They can choose to be offended, but if that clearly was not my intent, I don't feel the need to accommodate them. I've found that some people have a desire, even a mission to feel offended, and don't feel that it helps either of us to tiptoe around their neurosis. Because of the seemingly infinite flexibility of their offense taking, I couldn't fail to offend no matter how much I tried, and I've learned that by trying and trying and trying. If I say a phrase that has long meant "all of you", but you have now decided means "all of you males", then I don't think I'm responsible for your offense taking. I think you're responsible for purposely redefining the clear meaning to score some kind of points.

lostgame 6y ago

Why on earth is this flagged? This is such an important discussion. I'm also shocked by the folks here who feel they're too special to respect other people with language. I expected better of this community.

kevmoo1 6y ago
Amen. Should NOT be flagged. Be professional. Be respectful. Be thoughtful. Be flexible. Be kind. It is NOT asking too much. This is a pretty low bar – especially for "smart" people.
effingwewt 6y ago
Your very comment espouses everything wromg with this. You feel it's important, so it must be. Then you use the derogatory term 'snowflake', only you twist its meaning to call out people for not bowing to your whims, to me you are the one thinking they are special, and are too much a 'snowflake' to see the other side of the argument. There is a huge difference between giving and taking offense.
thrownaway954 6y ago
cause he is selling a product based around this and the submitted title doesn't even mention this. its a bait and switch.

insickness 6y ago

I have no problem calling someone by their preferred gender term and including gender-neutral language. The problem I have is that there is an ever-growing, constantly-changing secret set of rules created, not as much to make people feel better, but in order to purposefully shame those who's viewpoints differ from the current political viewpoint that all human interaction is steeped in racism/sexism/bigotry. The day after the Amy Coney Barrett used the term 'sexual preference,' Merriam-Webster Dictionary updated it to say it is offensive. https://www.newsweek.com/amy-coney-barrett-preference-definition-1539088 https://www.newsweek.com/amy-coney-barrett-preference-defini... Are these rules really improving society or are they just being weaponized to impose a political doctrine?

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
Honestly I think it's an arcane set of rules that's meant to cement and elevate the position of the managerial/upper-class and ignore "the barbarians". As much as the left claims to love the working class, all this cancellation stuff and hyper-sensitivity effectively disowns and demonizes the entire working class (idk, at least in my experience doing blue collar stuff, pretty much everyone I know in the city now would have an aneurysm sitting around a lunch trunk at break).
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  So would a worker sitting in a "sprint retro"

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago

It really depends on the person. I was once working in a an almost exclusively female envirinment and it wasn't rare to receive these "Hey, Ladies" e-mails, especially when the person replying didn't bother to check the guge Cc: list for the existence of the only male employee. What did I feel then? Amusement. I'd sometimes reply in jest something about "just our girly things" and the author usually apologized "oh I'm sorry, I didn't notice you on Cc:" which was even more amusing since I didn't really feel there's anything to apologize for.

bloqs 6y ago

Im expecting some absurd woke virtue signalling and was not disappointed

hackeraccount 6y ago

Why is it difficult to consider that guys is not the plural of guy? Or that girl is not a perfect analog of boy? I understand the logic of "it's not how you mean it but rather how I take it" but at some point people are going to start to think this isn't how you take but some sort of ideological power play.

valbaca 6y ago

None of this is new despite everyone's insistence that it is. We learned in letter-writing that if you don't know who might read it, then you start with "To whom it may concern:"

onecommentman 6y ago
It could be cute to acronymize “To whom it may concern” to Twimc (hard c) and introduce it into normal speech. “Hey, twimks, want to get some pizza...”

mcphage 6y ago

I've got mixed feelings about this one. On one hand, I'm definitely fine with seeking to reduce uncomfortable terms in my speech. On the other, looking at how "guys" is used, it seems clear that it's in the process of becoming de-gendered. It isn't entirely, yet, but it's almost completely there. And in general, stepping into the path of language change seems a fool's errand; it's going to happen whether we want it to or not. So trying to force "guys" to stay gendered when it's in the process of changing seems like an exercise in futility. Similar to those people who reject "singular they" or "literally meaning figuratively". Those changes happened hundreds of years ago, yet there are still people trying to fight those fights. "de-gendered guys" at least is still in progress, so I'll give it that—but I'm pretty sure that the outcome is not in doubt.

bbg215 6y ago

I used to have a bad habit of saying "thanks man" and "hey guys" regardless of who I was talking to. In all cases it was more due to laziness and habit than anything else and I was somewhat unaware of it. It wasn't hard to change, with the main benefit being I no longer came off like a complete dumbass to a room full of women or a trans person.

anotherevan 6y ago

Thanks all y’all for y’all. I’m taking y’all. I love y’all. Because “y’all” is the best, most inclusive second-person, plural pronoun in the English-speaking world. Thank you, the South. What an ally. — Hannah Gadsby, Douglas

RhysU 6y ago
Except y'all can be dismissive or insulting depending upon context. Let's go y'all (idiots)!
- soganess 6y ago
  > Let's go y'all (idiots)! I have never thought/heard of it that way? Could you provide some context?
  - RhysU 6y ago
    I am unable to find something quotable to back me up. So, I can only offer my personal take. I lived in Austin from 2004 until 2014. Not a Texan by any stretch. When a member of a group says y'all to the group it is warm. When an outsider says y'all to a group it can be pejorative. Compare the following in both senses: "Let's get it together y'all!" In the first sense, it is a rallying cry. In the second sense, the speaker may think you aren't trying hard enough. There, "y'all" was added only to put some stank on the sentence. The pejorative may be limited to the end of the sentence. As in: Think! vs Think Y'all!
    - soganess 6y ago
      OOOOOOOh, I know what you mean now! It is an in-group thing. I experienced a less subtle version of that with my usage of "howdy". Context: I wasn't born in the US, but was only 4 when we immigrated. For whatever reason young me gravitated toward "howdy" as my greeting. Probably just my young love of westerns; regardless, "howdy" has always been my informal "yo". Anyway, my first few months in the South, local would ask me if I was making fun of them when I said "Howdy all" / "Howdy guys." Same way I've always said it. Now it was rare, but I would hear locals say "howdy" on occasion without ridicule. Something about my saying it caught a weary eye. When I'm down South now, I just say "Hi". Weirdly, no one else has ever mentioned it.