7 ms·

I wasn't aware of the feature, but it sounds... a bit worrying, frankly. Not for your use case I'm sure, nor for the majority of people, but I can see how it ca

by kace91 6y ago

I wasn't aware of the feature, but it sounds... a bit worrying, frankly. Not for your use case I'm sure, nor for the majority of people, but I can see how it can be used in cases of abusive relationships to establish control.

fyfy18 6y ago
I may be wrong as I switched a few years ago... but as I remember Find my Friends on iOS had all these features.
- mvanbaak 6y ago
  It's called 'findmy' now, and yet, it has all this. And it works with their watch and notebook as well, not just phone.
nefitty 6y ago
This is a valid concern. I may be speaking from a place of privilege, but does it really make sense to curtail innovation because a small set of people might use a technology for nefarious purposes?
- kace91 6y ago
  how would you define innovation? I would argue that technology that is better designed to make nefarious purposes harder to achieve, rather than just dumping features onto the user, is innovative. User protection is also a feature, one that's usually way more valuable than convenience but that we only appreciate when it's gone and it's too late. It's not necessarily a matter of privilege, we're all potentially at the risk of having an account hijacked by a rando, or having a device stolen, or having a relationship go sideways to a crazy point.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    I think this point can only be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. On the one hand, if there's an easy win that would defeat some nefarious use case while not impacting legitimate ones, it should be taken. On the other hand, it's a fact of nature that a human can weaponize anything if they put their mind to it, so it's impossible to design technologies that cannot be used for doing harm to others.
  - robertlagrant 6y ago
    > I would argue that technology that is better designed to make nefarious purposes harder to achieve, rather than just dumping features onto the user, is innovative. Redefining general terms is the thing that adds the least possible value to a conversation. It often just makes things worse.
    - kace91 6y ago
      Are you in disagreement with the point of my comment, or just the way it's worded? Perhaps I can explain what I mean better: New features, by itself, aren't the only way technology moves forward, even thought it's the more noticeable and entertaining way. An improvement in the way existing features are accessed, or even a protection for certain features being accessed in a way that's potentially wrong, can also be an improvement or innovation. Static typing, enforced linters, or the Rust borrow checker are good examples of restriction-as-a-feature. Therefore, I disagree with the original comment's implication that restricting features in lieu of security or misuse is a blocker for innovation.
throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
Interesting response. Gently warming frog? If something like this was described in say 1990 I suspect your opinion might be stronger, perhaps even horrified. Te parent's "...but I really hope they can push the tech further to make it even more useful than what it is at current" is basically 'let's have more of this'. Convenience is evidently winning out over risk or privacy intrusion and a the panopticon not by the back door but by the front door, with a welcome mat outside and a nice cup of tea waiting within. To be blunt, I find this POV scary.
- TLightful 6y ago
  1000 upvotes.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  David Brin predicts this in The Transparent Society: these technologies are ushered in not by governments looking to enforce control over their people, but by private individuals looking for more control over their lives (including keeping their property and the people in their lives they are responsible for safe and secure). Ring doorbells and cheap webcams are other examples. Brin's takeaway is the genie is out of the bottle, and the thing to do is decide what level of surveillance we're comfortable with.
- ipython 6y ago
  Actually in the early 2000s I remember openly welcoming this technology. At the time it was not obvious to me at least that this sort of information would so easily be abused by corporations and governments. It just seemed like a great personal assistant and the rose colored glasses were firmly attached.
Newky 6y ago
Not arguing that this could be used in an abusive relationship, but if we work on the basis that someone could install a similar program on their partner's phone that's not Google. There are a lot of pro's for the tracked person with the Google implementation. Google email you quite frequently (I believe monthly?) to tell you that you are sharing your location and with whom. You can disable it at any time. Obviously disabling such a feature in an abusive relationship may not be an option.
- prox 6y ago
  I fail to see upticks for sharing your location that couldn’t be resolved with a “Hey I am going to x” message
  - adjkant 6y ago
    Some random things I use find my friends and Snapchat's map for: 1. Seeing if/when friends get home safe after a late night (they may forget to text before going to bed) 2. ETA of friends I'm meeting that travel by bike 3. Is X in the neighborhood if I wanted to stop by? (avoids the check message, still will check for most friends before showing up at the door) Sharing your location is a personal choice I'd never judge someone for not doing, but I very much enjoy it with close friends I trust.
    - prox 6y ago
      Ah I see, for a trusted friend group that could work. Thanks for sharing!
    - kace91 6y ago
      For the two first points, Whatsapp lets you share your location for a small amount of time (either 15 mins or 1 hour). It's very common when a group of people is going to hang out, so the rest of them that come a bit later doesn't need to go through the whole dance ("hey are you still at X place?" "have you moved?" "I can't see you" ) but still leaves you with privacy by default.
hrktb 6y ago
This is a valid concern, sadly it's only a drop in the bucket. Talking to people trying to get divorced and preparing to have their partner become an "enemy", a lot of them had their apple and google accounts managed by their partners. It was either a shared account and their partner accessed the info just logging in, or it was their own, but setup and 2FA'd by their partner who would get notified of external logins etc. And most of the account services have no protection against "yourself" logging in. The state of account management can be very dire for people who don't actively manage theirs from beginning to end. Then the complexity of some settings can make it look daunting and they just bail on the whole process.
- LorenPechtel 6y ago
  Yup, in an awful lot of relationships one person is a lot more competent than the other at such things and naturally does that sort of thing.
TuringNYC 6y ago
It is important to consider the bad, but also important to consider the good, and design with both in mind. I use the Trusted Contacts app to track my mom as she goes into the city for doctor's appointments. We're often on the phone together, calling Uber's together to just the correct spot, all while i'm sitting in the office in another city. Thankfully my mom is not in this condition, but in our city we regularly get notices of senior citizens who are confused and lost. There is another situation where this type of app helps.

by kace91 6y ago

fyfy18 6y ago

I may be wrong as I switched a few years ago... but as I remember Find my Friends on iOS had all these features.

mvanbaak 6y ago
It's called 'findmy' now, and yet, it has all this. And it works with their watch and notebook as well, not just phone.

nefitty 6y ago

This is a valid concern. I may be speaking from a place of privilege, but does it really make sense to curtail innovation because a small set of people might use a technology for nefarious purposes?

kace91 6y ago
how would you define innovation? I would argue that technology that is better designed to make nefarious purposes harder to achieve, rather than just dumping features onto the user, is innovative. User protection is also a feature, one that's usually way more valuable than convenience but that we only appreciate when it's gone and it's too late. It's not necessarily a matter of privilege, we're all potentially at the risk of having an account hijacked by a rando, or having a device stolen, or having a relationship go sideways to a crazy point.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  I think this point can only be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. On the one hand, if there's an easy win that would defeat some nefarious use case while not impacting legitimate ones, it should be taken. On the other hand, it's a fact of nature that a human can weaponize anything if they put their mind to it, so it's impossible to design technologies that cannot be used for doing harm to others.
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  > I would argue that technology that is better designed to make nefarious purposes harder to achieve, rather than just dumping features onto the user, is innovative. Redefining general terms is the thing that adds the least possible value to a conversation. It often just makes things worse.
  - kace91 6y ago
    Are you in disagreement with the point of my comment, or just the way it's worded? Perhaps I can explain what I mean better: New features, by itself, aren't the only way technology moves forward, even thought it's the more noticeable and entertaining way. An improvement in the way existing features are accessed, or even a protection for certain features being accessed in a way that's potentially wrong, can also be an improvement or innovation. Static typing, enforced linters, or the Rust borrow checker are good examples of restriction-as-a-feature. Therefore, I disagree with the original comment's implication that restricting features in lieu of security or misuse is a blocker for innovation.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

Interesting response. Gently warming frog? If something like this was described in say 1990 I suspect your opinion might be stronger, perhaps even horrified. Te parent's "...but I really hope they can push the tech further to make it even more useful than what it is at current" is basically 'let's have more of this'. Convenience is evidently winning out over risk or privacy intrusion and a the panopticon not by the back door but by the front door, with a welcome mat outside and a nice cup of tea waiting within. To be blunt, I find this POV scary.

TLightful 6y ago
1000 upvotes.
shadowgovt 6y ago
David Brin predicts this in The Transparent Society: these technologies are ushered in not by governments looking to enforce control over their people, but by private individuals looking for more control over their lives (including keeping their property and the people in their lives they are responsible for safe and secure). Ring doorbells and cheap webcams are other examples. Brin's takeaway is the genie is out of the bottle, and the thing to do is decide what level of surveillance we're comfortable with.
ipython 6y ago
Actually in the early 2000s I remember openly welcoming this technology. At the time it was not obvious to me at least that this sort of information would so easily be abused by corporations and governments. It just seemed like a great personal assistant and the rose colored glasses were firmly attached.

Newky 6y ago

Not arguing that this could be used in an abusive relationship, but if we work on the basis that someone could install a similar program on their partner's phone that's not Google. There are a lot of pro's for the tracked person with the Google implementation. Google email you quite frequently (I believe monthly?) to tell you that you are sharing your location and with whom. You can disable it at any time. Obviously disabling such a feature in an abusive relationship may not be an option.

prox 6y ago
I fail to see upticks for sharing your location that couldn’t be resolved with a “Hey I am going to x” message
- adjkant 6y ago
  Some random things I use find my friends and Snapchat's map for: 1. Seeing if/when friends get home safe after a late night (they may forget to text before going to bed) 2. ETA of friends I'm meeting that travel by bike 3. Is X in the neighborhood if I wanted to stop by? (avoids the check message, still will check for most friends before showing up at the door) Sharing your location is a personal choice I'd never judge someone for not doing, but I very much enjoy it with close friends I trust.
  - prox 6y ago
    Ah I see, for a trusted friend group that could work. Thanks for sharing!
  - kace91 6y ago
    For the two first points, Whatsapp lets you share your location for a small amount of time (either 15 mins or 1 hour). It's very common when a group of people is going to hang out, so the rest of them that come a bit later doesn't need to go through the whole dance ("hey are you still at X place?" "have you moved?" "I can't see you" ) but still leaves you with privacy by default.

hrktb 6y ago

This is a valid concern, sadly it's only a drop in the bucket. Talking to people trying to get divorced and preparing to have their partner become an "enemy", a lot of them had their apple and google accounts managed by their partners. It was either a shared account and their partner accessed the info just logging in, or it was their own, but setup and 2FA'd by their partner who would get notified of external logins etc. And most of the account services have no protection against "yourself" logging in. The state of account management can be very dire for people who don't actively manage theirs from beginning to end. Then the complexity of some settings can make it look daunting and they just bail on the whole process.

LorenPechtel 6y ago
Yup, in an awful lot of relationships one person is a lot more competent than the other at such things and naturally does that sort of thing.

TuringNYC 6y ago

It is important to consider the bad, but also important to consider the good, and design with both in mind. I use the Trusted Contacts app to track my mom as she goes into the city for doctor's appointments. We're often on the phone together, calling Uber's together to just the correct spot, all while i'm sitting in the office in another city. Thankfully my mom is not in this condition, but in our city we regularly get notices of senior citizens who are confused and lost. There is another situation where this type of app helps.