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Thank you for the callout. I appreciate the warning, and the direct point to the guidelines. You're absolutely right, I have been tense and short-sighted, and
by deanCommie 6y ago
Thank you for the callout. I appreciate the warning, and the direct point to the guidelines.
You're absolutely right, I have been tense and short-sighted, and have been in complete and blatant violation of each of the first 4 points you mentioned.
I will take care to be more restrained with my emotion and contribute more productively and with substance.
However I must say I do not know how to react to that last line, and I propose that this guideline is well-intentioned but too broad. I grew up (and I'm sure most HN posters did) at a time when we considered "politics" as something that is totally distinct from science and technology. What attracted us to tech was the meritocracy, the purity of ideas, the ability to pursue and explore that curiousity and creativity.
Yet...the last decade has revealed at least some new truths that responsible technologists can ill-afford to ignore:
1) Technology cannot be disassociated from politics if it is wielded for political purpose.
2) Science has become politicized, and subjects like "climate change", "alternative energy", etc, are actively stifled for political reasons, so cannot be explored or developed without acknowledging their political counterarguments.
3) Ignoring political subjects that are independent of technology and therefore may seem frivolous or redundant to some people is itself a privilige. For example, US immigration or LGBT policies directly feed into the talent at US tech companies can hire, the culture they can sustain, and that manifests in the technological choices and outputs of these companies. This is why by and large, "diversity and inclusion" topics become such hotbeds of discussion on this site.
So while I acknowledge your overall broad point and will strive to do better, I do think it is appropriate for me to comment or call out certain "political" or "idiological" points in the context of the discussion that is being had. For example, I do think there is evidence that the most highly-upvoted perspectives on the subject of Twitter/Facebook censorship are themselves political/idiological. The most heavily upvoted comments call out censorship of right-leaning news while not acknowledging the role of right-leaning misinformation under the guise of news. They claim to hold an absolutist position on free speech yet denigrate "cancel culture" (which is a form of free speech that has the potential to be harmful to societal majority in-groups vs protected hate speech that is only harmful to minority out-groups).
I absolutely seek out those top-voted comments that are stating an idiological position and am looking to provide a counterargument.
I have not done so with appropriate substance or care, and will do so from now on. But I cannot and will not in good conscience avoid those subjects as they are the most important issues of our time.
- dang 6y agoThat guideline doesn't mean that tech can be disassociated from politics. Nor is HN just about "tech"—see the top of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. The important word in that guideline is not "political" but "battle". When people are just trying to defeat enemies, that has nothing in common with curious conversation. Worse, it destroys curious conversation (as the guideline points out). For example, in battle, one must repeat the same points over and over—repetition is key to victory. But repetition kills curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...). Worse, in battle the goal is not to explore the world or think out loud, but to overpower someone else. Communication becomes weaponized and rhetorical. This leads to entirely different discussion, and it leads people to attack each other in nasty ways that destroy community. If we don't moderate this, flames will take over the site completely. The intention on HN is not to exclude political topics but to include them, when they're interesting, in a way that is consistent with curiosity, which is what we're trying to optimize this site for (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). We need HN users to stay within curious mode and forego battle mode. I've written about how we moderate politics on HN many times, and the questions and answers have been pretty stable for a long time. You'll find past explanations here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... If anyone has a better idea about how we should approach this, I'd love to hear it. But please make sure that you've familiarized yourself with the material first, because if it's something simple like "just ban politics" or "just allow everything", I've already answered many times why that won't work.