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You lost me completely when you said Miami is less broken politically than San Francisco. Have you spent much time in these places? Miami is a mess of planning

You lost me completely when you said Miami is less broken politically than San Francisco. Have you spent much time in these places? Miami is a mess of planning and corruption with none of the modern industries like tech that create quality employment for the middle class with reasonable wages, quality healthcare, and partial ownership of their employers. After decades you still can’t take a train from the airport to the main destination (Miami Beach). They won’t even admit climate change is happening as the state suffers worsening floods every year. In fact the governor has banned the use of the term “climate change” to help avoid the issue. You must be pretty far to the right if you’re going to argue Miami is working well

manigandham 6y ago
They only said less broken, not working well, and that's true of pretty much most cities today when compared to the abyssal dysfunction of SF. There is far more to a city than employment, like taxes and affordability.
- mrgordon 6y ago
  Employment allows people to afford things. Also when you live in a place with $8/hour minimum wage you quickly realize that nothing is affordable for most of the service industry workers. $320 per week before taxes with no stock options or healthcare and you think the basic affordability is better in Florida than California? What are they going to buy things with? Florida is great if you made money elsewhere and want to come spend it in a low tax state where people move to retire to the suburbs and die. If you’re actually working then you realize there is no major industry outside of things like tourism which leads to a lot of low paying dead end jobs.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    There's a massive difference between states and cities. Are you talking about states now? Why are you comparing service workers in Florida to software engineers in California? Being in the service industry is worse in CA than FL, even with a higher min wage (which usually increases cost of living just as much). And there's not much of a middle class in CA either regardless of industry, in fact the entire state is known for its vast wealth inequality and disappearance of the middle class. As far as affordability of housing in SF, it's because of city policies that refuse to let new housing be built, not because people don't make enough to buy a home. Same with extremely high taxes that deliver no value to citizens while the city is overrun with crime and homelessness and deteriorating infrastructure. This is separate from employment, and really needs to be fixed first before you can increase opportunities for people.
    - mrgordon 6y ago
      “Extremely high taxes that deliver no value to citizens” Hah! Yep the money just disappears Your comments throughout this thread make it clear you don’t want to have a discussion on the issues. So we can agree to disagree. In summary, the point is software engineers in Florida rarely get equity or decent healthcare either, if they can even find a real software job in FL that isn’t just IT for some company that has nothing to do with computers. Most of the Floridian software engineers I know work for companies based in California or NY / MA where there are networks of successful startups and angel investors who help get new companies off the ground. You criticize San Francisco for deteriorating infrastructure when places like Florida haven’t even managed to build comparable infrastructure. It’s easy to critique BART but until you take Tri-Rail you’ll never realize that it’s like BART is from the future in comparison. The machines to buy tickets routinely don’t work to the point that I had to board without a ticket and just pay a fine when they checked tickets so I didn’t have to wait an hour for the next train. Meanwhile the state is sinking while they deny climate change. Truly an infrastructure disaster.
      - manigandham 6y ago
        > "make it clear you don’t want to have a discussion" We are literally having a discussion. Does it only count if we agree? Call it a debate then if you must. And yes the money does disappear. It's called waste, a very common problem with how governments spend money. The quality of life and govt services in SF and CA are not commensurate with the taxes collected. The wider point is that ratio of avg income to expenses is worse in CA than FL. This is what "adjusted" cost of living means, and is regardless of various specific niches and industries that you're focusing on. If you still think FL is worse than fine, just move to CA. You might love it here, but I doubt you will once you realize just how bad the politics are, which was what the original claim was.
        mrgordon 6y ago
        "make it clear you don’t want to have a discussion on the issues" You literally chopped off the last three words to try to make it sound like it said something different. Saying that when you pay more taxes it just blanketly disappears is both demonstrably false and clearly an exaggeration to the point of no longer being a discussion on the issues. I spent over a decade living in California. I'm well aware what its like.
echelon 6y ago
> You must be pretty far to the right if you’re going to argue Miami is working well That's a baseless and factually incorrect accusation. > Have you spent much time in these places? Yes, and I don't see it the same way you do. > After decades you still can’t take a train from the airport to the main destination (Miami Beach). That's a problem? There are other forms of public transit and low-cost transportation. The US has by and large opted not to invest in heavy rail - that's not a local issue, that's a federal one. It's not like California is leading the way on trains anymore. > Miami is a mess of planning and corruption with none of the modern industries like tech that create quality employment for the middle class with reasonable wages, quality healthcare, and partial ownership of their employers. Sharing a flat with two roommates isn't quality middle class living, either. > In fact the governor has banned the use of the term “climate change” to help avoid the issue. Florida is a purple state. You can point fingers, but the state is at the precipice. The election was incredibly close. You shouldn't diss those living there - they have an outsized impact on the direction of this country. Their electorate matters more than California's, and we should hope more liberal voters move to Florida and similar states.
- manigandham 6y ago
  > "we should hope more liberal voters move to Florida and similar states" Why? Seems like a good way to get the worst of both sides with constant gridlock. I prefer states to have a clear political stance so citizens can clearly choose the rules they live under. Liberal voters staying in liberal states might learn more about how their policies work instead of escaping the consequences they voted in once those policies ruin the city, like they did to SF.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    Yeah, why would someone move to Florida to escape California and then bring the shitty big government politics with them to do the same thing there?
- mrgordon 6y ago
  You totally missed the point. It’s not that Miami designed some great alternative to get to Miami Beach and I am mad they didn’t use heavy rail. There is no good way to get around without a personal vehicle. Going from the airport to Miami Beach is the most common trip for visitors and they haven’t even done basic planning for it. It’s completely a local issue. In fact, even if you want to talk about heavy rail, it’s been a local or at least state issue. The voters of the state passed a referendum for a bullet train nearly two decades ago and then the state government went to great lengths to avoid building it anyway. The Obama Administration even offered federal funds for it since it was the project that could be completed most quickly. But the state refused. And yes California is proceeding with a high speed train despite the anti-train hit pieces from the LA Times. Sure rent is lower but the incomes are so much lower and the minimum wage is so low that the average worker is worse off. There has not been a Democratic governor in Florida since the 1990s and we have had a member of the Bush family and one of the biggest Medicare fraudsters in history since so I would say it’s been a relatively red state other than occasionally swinging blue in the presidential race. Thanks for telling me I shouldn’t diss people who live in Florida. I live in Florida so I don’t really need the advice. After several decades here I am well versed in the many issues here including finding any neighborhood larger than two blocks that is walkable. Or finding a public park since the land was all sold to private developers. That’s not how urban planning works in functioning cities like San Francisco. Maybe you should take your own advice and not diss people in California since you don’t live there.

manigandham 6y ago

They only said less broken, not working well, and that's true of pretty much most cities today when compared to the abyssal dysfunction of SF. There is far more to a city than employment, like taxes and affordability.

mrgordon 6y ago
Employment allows people to afford things. Also when you live in a place with $8/hour minimum wage you quickly realize that nothing is affordable for most of the service industry workers. $320 per week before taxes with no stock options or healthcare and you think the basic affordability is better in Florida than California? What are they going to buy things with? Florida is great if you made money elsewhere and want to come spend it in a low tax state where people move to retire to the suburbs and die. If you’re actually working then you realize there is no major industry outside of things like tourism which leads to a lot of low paying dead end jobs.
- manigandham 6y ago
  There's a massive difference between states and cities. Are you talking about states now? Why are you comparing service workers in Florida to software engineers in California? Being in the service industry is worse in CA than FL, even with a higher min wage (which usually increases cost of living just as much). And there's not much of a middle class in CA either regardless of industry, in fact the entire state is known for its vast wealth inequality and disappearance of the middle class. As far as affordability of housing in SF, it's because of city policies that refuse to let new housing be built, not because people don't make enough to buy a home. Same with extremely high taxes that deliver no value to citizens while the city is overrun with crime and homelessness and deteriorating infrastructure. This is separate from employment, and really needs to be fixed first before you can increase opportunities for people.
  - mrgordon 6y ago
    “Extremely high taxes that deliver no value to citizens” Hah! Yep the money just disappears Your comments throughout this thread make it clear you don’t want to have a discussion on the issues. So we can agree to disagree. In summary, the point is software engineers in Florida rarely get equity or decent healthcare either, if they can even find a real software job in FL that isn’t just IT for some company that has nothing to do with computers. Most of the Floridian software engineers I know work for companies based in California or NY / MA where there are networks of successful startups and angel investors who help get new companies off the ground. You criticize San Francisco for deteriorating infrastructure when places like Florida haven’t even managed to build comparable infrastructure. It’s easy to critique BART but until you take Tri-Rail you’ll never realize that it’s like BART is from the future in comparison. The machines to buy tickets routinely don’t work to the point that I had to board without a ticket and just pay a fine when they checked tickets so I didn’t have to wait an hour for the next train. Meanwhile the state is sinking while they deny climate change. Truly an infrastructure disaster.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      > "make it clear you don’t want to have a discussion" We are literally having a discussion. Does it only count if we agree? Call it a debate then if you must. And yes the money does disappear. It's called waste, a very common problem with how governments spend money. The quality of life and govt services in SF and CA are not commensurate with the taxes collected. The wider point is that ratio of avg income to expenses is worse in CA than FL. This is what "adjusted" cost of living means, and is regardless of various specific niches and industries that you're focusing on. If you still think FL is worse than fine, just move to CA. You might love it here, but I doubt you will once you realize just how bad the politics are, which was what the original claim was.
      - mrgordon 6y ago
        "make it clear you don’t want to have a discussion on the issues" You literally chopped off the last three words to try to make it sound like it said something different. Saying that when you pay more taxes it just blanketly disappears is both demonstrably false and clearly an exaggeration to the point of no longer being a discussion on the issues. I spent over a decade living in California. I'm well aware what its like.

echelon 6y ago

> You must be pretty far to the right if you’re going to argue Miami is working well That's a baseless and factually incorrect accusation. > Have you spent much time in these places? Yes, and I don't see it the same way you do. > After decades you still can’t take a train from the airport to the main destination (Miami Beach). That's a problem? There are other forms of public transit and low-cost transportation. The US has by and large opted not to invest in heavy rail - that's not a local issue, that's a federal one. It's not like California is leading the way on trains anymore. > Miami is a mess of planning and corruption with none of the modern industries like tech that create quality employment for the middle class with reasonable wages, quality healthcare, and partial ownership of their employers. Sharing a flat with two roommates isn't quality middle class living, either. > In fact the governor has banned the use of the term “climate change” to help avoid the issue. Florida is a purple state. You can point fingers, but the state is at the precipice. The election was incredibly close. You shouldn't diss those living there - they have an outsized impact on the direction of this country. Their electorate matters more than California's, and we should hope more liberal voters move to Florida and similar states.

manigandham 6y ago
> "we should hope more liberal voters move to Florida and similar states" Why? Seems like a good way to get the worst of both sides with constant gridlock. I prefer states to have a clear political stance so citizens can clearly choose the rules they live under. Liberal voters staying in liberal states might learn more about how their policies work instead of escaping the consequences they voted in once those policies ruin the city, like they did to SF.
- kortilla 6y ago
  Yeah, why would someone move to Florida to escape California and then bring the shitty big government politics with them to do the same thing there?
mrgordon 6y ago
You totally missed the point. It’s not that Miami designed some great alternative to get to Miami Beach and I am mad they didn’t use heavy rail. There is no good way to get around without a personal vehicle. Going from the airport to Miami Beach is the most common trip for visitors and they haven’t even done basic planning for it. It’s completely a local issue. In fact, even if you want to talk about heavy rail, it’s been a local or at least state issue. The voters of the state passed a referendum for a bullet train nearly two decades ago and then the state government went to great lengths to avoid building it anyway. The Obama Administration even offered federal funds for it since it was the project that could be completed most quickly. But the state refused. And yes California is proceeding with a high speed train despite the anti-train hit pieces from the LA Times. Sure rent is lower but the incomes are so much lower and the minimum wage is so low that the average worker is worse off. There has not been a Democratic governor in Florida since the 1990s and we have had a member of the Bush family and one of the biggest Medicare fraudsters in history since so I would say it’s been a relatively red state other than occasionally swinging blue in the presidential race. Thanks for telling me I shouldn’t diss people who live in Florida. I live in Florida so I don’t really need the advice. After several decades here I am well versed in the many issues here including finding any neighborhood larger than two blocks that is walkable. Or finding a public park since the land was all sold to private developers. That’s not how urban planning works in functioning cities like San Francisco. Maybe you should take your own advice and not diss people in California since you don’t live there.