8 ms·

Nope. Big IT (which is highly creative stuff) cannot be built top-down, only bottom up. Europe is and will be an IT wasteland.

vetinari 6y ago
Depends. It could be argued that DARPA and it's development programs during Cold War were top-down. They were providing a market for the innovators, so they could pop up and do whatever their vision was. But that is something different that taking all the funds by incumbents.
- snicker7 6y ago
  DARPA is a R&D organization, not an industrial powerhouse.
- pm90 6y ago
  It doesn’t seem like a good comparison. The US didn’t shoot for “building a cloud” with the DARPA investments. The goal of those investments were for very specific projects that assisted the military (short and long term) and the Internet and SV were a side effect. Trying to build a “Rival Cloud” immediately sets off red flags for me because of how vague it is. What are the concrete goals? To replicate AWS? How much would you want to replicate? Which services? Which features in the services? Why would customers choose this over AWS? How could this organization be run (somewhat) profitably while being useful? They already have Hetzner. Seems like the EU government could work with them to fund the new services they think are important. Maybe open source the components that they build so other EU companies could build similar services if Hetzner went bust.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    That's getting into irrelevant details, imho. The point of EU programs is not to build anything, that's just an excuse. The objective is to funnel tax payer's money to politically well-connected.
- bserge 6y ago
  DARPA literally gives grants to anyone with innovative/crazy/out of the ordinary ideas. It's the opposite in the EU, big companies get funding to develop something. Startups have no chance, unless someone knows someone.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    I agree, DARPA objective was to build industry; EU program objectives are to move tax payer's money into private pockets. However, my argument to parent was, that DARPA was also top-down, and it was a success.
    - joejerryronnie 6y ago
      I think the most successful model is when large gov agencies (DoD, NIH, etc) fund core, basic research and then intermediaries (Research orgs, Universities, etc) allow that research to be spun off into private companies. Stanford’s approach has been pretty successful.
  - 0xfaded 6y ago
    And don't be fooled by all this "start-up friendly" propaganda. Yes, funding does exist. But it will be doled out $50k at a time. And remember to log all your hours and write reports for the program administrators. I watched a talk by David Graeber, author of On Bullsh*t Jobs. He observes that actual service sector jobs, where someone does something for someone else, have made up a pretty constant 20% of the economy. According to wikipedia, 74.7% of Europe's economy is services [0]. It's going to be a rude awakening when the curtains are pulled back on a 55% bullshit economy. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#...
  - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
    Not necessarily, see https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/finance-funding/getting-funding/eu-funding-programmes/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/finance-funding/gettin... You can apply even as a single person, just need to know your ways through the bureaucracy, how to formulate your application, business plan, etc. Not easy, but doable. Or use one of the many services which support you in doing that. There seems to be a service industry around that nowadays, which wasn't the case when I did a few years ago, or been to scroogy and stubborn because I can speak and write fucking AMTSDEUTSCH if I have to :)
karmasimida 6y ago
Nothing can't be certain for the 'will be' part. With enough policy tools and barrier, EU cloud will happen.
bserge 6y ago
It's all about order. Established companies are the order. Anyone muddling the water is a threat to order, so they get sidelined. It works well for the average citizen, but not so great for innovative and ambitious people.
StreamBright 6y ago
Living in the EU and working as a consultant for some time, I could not agree more. In 2020 when every major company and gov agency uses cloud computing there are still many companies in Germany who refuse to do so because of security. I mean nothing concrete or factual, just "because of security concerns". The same companies have weekly security breaches that they are not even aware of always, sometimes customers notify them. There is still a heavy management focus in the EU, the kind of the manager is always right, no matter what happens. I could go on and on but when I hear about 10B spent (wasted) on a giant EU cloud I always envision these smart managers sitting in a room and doing white boarding session without a single solitary clue what is going on outside in the word. It is going to be the most expensive shitshow in the history of the EU. Popcorn is ready.
- joejerryronnie 6y ago
  And when this boondoggle inevitably fails, and Europe falls further behind, the EU will reach for their tried and true hammer - protectionist laws and regulatory capture.
- Reimersholme 6y ago
  This is popcorn money compared to the ‘Covid relief fund’ that is a thinly veiled attempt to save the Euro project at an extreme cost to non-euro countries. Speaking about the most expensive shit shows in the EU that is.

vetinari 6y ago

Depends. It could be argued that DARPA and it's development programs during Cold War were top-down. They were providing a market for the innovators, so they could pop up and do whatever their vision was. But that is something different that taking all the funds by incumbents.

snicker7 6y ago
DARPA is a R&D organization, not an industrial powerhouse.
pm90 6y ago
It doesn’t seem like a good comparison. The US didn’t shoot for “building a cloud” with the DARPA investments. The goal of those investments were for very specific projects that assisted the military (short and long term) and the Internet and SV were a side effect. Trying to build a “Rival Cloud” immediately sets off red flags for me because of how vague it is. What are the concrete goals? To replicate AWS? How much would you want to replicate? Which services? Which features in the services? Why would customers choose this over AWS? How could this organization be run (somewhat) profitably while being useful? They already have Hetzner. Seems like the EU government could work with them to fund the new services they think are important. Maybe open source the components that they build so other EU companies could build similar services if Hetzner went bust.
- vetinari 6y ago
  That's getting into irrelevant details, imho. The point of EU programs is not to build anything, that's just an excuse. The objective is to funnel tax payer's money to politically well-connected.
bserge 6y ago
DARPA literally gives grants to anyone with innovative/crazy/out of the ordinary ideas. It's the opposite in the EU, big companies get funding to develop something. Startups have no chance, unless someone knows someone.
- vetinari 6y ago
  I agree, DARPA objective was to build industry; EU program objectives are to move tax payer's money into private pockets. However, my argument to parent was, that DARPA was also top-down, and it was a success.
  - joejerryronnie 6y ago
    I think the most successful model is when large gov agencies (DoD, NIH, etc) fund core, basic research and then intermediaries (Research orgs, Universities, etc) allow that research to be spun off into private companies. Stanford’s approach has been pretty successful.
- 0xfaded 6y ago
  And don't be fooled by all this "start-up friendly" propaganda. Yes, funding does exist. But it will be doled out $50k at a time. And remember to log all your hours and write reports for the program administrators. I watched a talk by David Graeber, author of On Bullsh*t Jobs. He observes that actual service sector jobs, where someone does something for someone else, have made up a pretty constant 20% of the economy. According to wikipedia, 74.7% of Europe's economy is services [0]. It's going to be a rude awakening when the curtains are pulled back on a 55% bullshit economy. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#...
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
  Not necessarily, see https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/finance-funding/getting-funding/eu-funding-programmes/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/finance-funding/gettin... You can apply even as a single person, just need to know your ways through the bureaucracy, how to formulate your application, business plan, etc. Not easy, but doable. Or use one of the many services which support you in doing that. There seems to be a service industry around that nowadays, which wasn't the case when I did a few years ago, or been to scroogy and stubborn because I can speak and write fucking AMTSDEUTSCH if I have to :)

karmasimida 6y ago

Nothing can't be certain for the 'will be' part. With enough policy tools and barrier, EU cloud will happen.

bserge 6y ago

It's all about order. Established companies are the order. Anyone muddling the water is a threat to order, so they get sidelined. It works well for the average citizen, but not so great for innovative and ambitious people.

StreamBright 6y ago

Living in the EU and working as a consultant for some time, I could not agree more. In 2020 when every major company and gov agency uses cloud computing there are still many companies in Germany who refuse to do so because of security. I mean nothing concrete or factual, just "because of security concerns". The same companies have weekly security breaches that they are not even aware of always, sometimes customers notify them. There is still a heavy management focus in the EU, the kind of the manager is always right, no matter what happens. I could go on and on but when I hear about 10B spent (wasted) on a giant EU cloud I always envision these smart managers sitting in a room and doing white boarding session without a single solitary clue what is going on outside in the word. It is going to be the most expensive shitshow in the history of the EU. Popcorn is ready.

joejerryronnie 6y ago
And when this boondoggle inevitably fails, and Europe falls further behind, the EU will reach for their tried and true hammer - protectionist laws and regulatory capture.
Reimersholme 6y ago
This is popcorn money compared to the ‘Covid relief fund’ that is a thinly veiled attempt to save the Euro project at an extreme cost to non-euro countries. Speaking about the most expensive shit shows in the EU that is.