7 ms·

twitter isn't doing those, they're losing friends through censorship. which they legally have every right to, but the powers that be are now campaigning to chan

twitter isn't doing those, they're losing friends through censorship. which they legally have every right to, but the powers that be are now campaigning to change that legal protection (exemption? sinve no one understands the second amendment)

trident1000 6y ago
They have every right to do it legally and you're right that the rules will probably change. People say "just go and make another platform" but Google literally tried and failed to make their own (Google+). If they cant do it who really can? Its not happening or it will take centuries/enormous resources to gain traction and compete. So we are left with an oligopoly that is censoring in lockstep and that's an issue for all sides because eventually its not them, its you, with time (amongst other issues). I think the platforms are a huge threat to democracy personally and I hope the new rules are meaningful and not just a knee jerk makeshift reaction.
- johannes1234321 6y ago
  That argument of "just go and make another platform" is misled anyways: Even if I build another platform: Twitter is still the primary communication channel of the US President. Which means that all secondary users (interested citizens, journalists, ...) hang out there as well. Thus whoever they block there or not has an impact, even if my competitor has a few hundred million users.
- Grimm1 6y ago
  Google+ just wasn't very good, the argument that no one else can do it doesn't sit right with me because google was half assing that from the beginning.
  - trident1000 6y ago
    I think those are the optics because it never took off so it looked half-assed but they made an effort (Google+ was also launched a long time ago so it looks antiquated by todays standards). Maybe a better argument is that its been decades and nobody is meaningfully competing with facebook or Twitter in their respective categories even though there is tremendous economic incentive to do so. Network effects are very difficult to break. When the president is on Twitter nobody wants to be on Bob's basement network. Its locked in a feedback loop. Follow up comment here because Ive apparently reached my limit for a while: I believe you. I still think a Google half-ass is going to be a stronger effort than another start ups full out stab at it. Facebook is the biggest "country" on earth almost by a factor of 2x with 2.7 billion people. Its just other worldy large and difficult to compete with especially today. But I get what you're saying.
    - Grimm1 6y ago
      I was following pretty heavy at the time, and unfortunately "made an effort" looked pretty poor to me. You are right network effects are difficult and if google wanted to throw it's full weight behind the problem instead of just dipping their toes they had the capital to shift opinion. I think this is far more likely google didn't have the will to make that a fully focused problem.
- rgbrenner 6y ago
  Social media platforms are mature enough that half hearted efforts like Google’s won’t work. But tiktok and Snapchat work. You know: real sustained efforts. Instagram launched 9 months before google plus. That should give you an idea of the landscape that google operated in. Instagram— with 13 employees at acquisition in 2012– works. Google isn’t a determiner of what works. They’re one of the laziest implementers of new services/startups.. they literally throw something out there and try to coast off their name. In markets where the customers are mostly satisfied, lazy stuff like that doesn’t create a winning product.
  - trident1000 6y ago
    Sometimes a narrow lane is found in social media in general, but I would argue the competition is still minimal or non existent for crossing lanes. For instance Twitter and snapchat and Tiktok are very different. I view the social media landscape as an oligopoly rather than monopolistic and they rarely cross into each others territory. Also the rate of new meaningful competitors just is not occurring fast enough when a democracy like the US has elections every 4 years. Theres a mismatch in competitor lane crossing and the rate at which democracy operates. Theres been what...2 or 3 major new social networks with limited scope that dont really compete with each other in 20 years on the western side? Its just not enough to make an impact and give people choice especially as we see them act in tandum.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  A separate platform requires a compelling story. Google proves merely that money and dev talent aren't enough no matter how much you have of either or both.
aristophenes 6y ago
You’re allowed to say whatever you want and I’m allowed to sue you if you tell lies about me. Twitter and other social media platforms are made exempt from this because they are hosting other people’s content and they’d be sued into oblivion if they could be held responsible for what everyone posts on their service. But as soon as they start censoring whatever they want, they aren’t a true public platform anymore, the content you see is what they want you to see. So they should also be liable to civil suits if the information they allow to disseminate is not true. This isn’t about the second amendment, IMO.
- DominoTree 6y ago
  It's DEFINITELY not about the second amendment.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    I don't know, maybe content recommendations systems could be considered weapons...
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  They were NEVER a public platform they were always a private company. Its a commonly repeated untruth that as soon as they start moderating they cease to be protected. Nothing could be further from the truth 230 specifically protects their right to moderate.
  - Zak 6y ago
    People advocating that position usually have a very specific idea about how they want sites to be moderated, but section 230 is about not treating platforms as if they're the speaker when one of their users posts illegal speech, regardless of moderation. Of course, politically biased speech is not illegal, so it's really about punishing platforms for moderation somebody doesn't like. A more reasonable target for a 230 carve-out would be recommendation algorithms. Those aren't merely passively hosting user-generated content, but actively selecting what they think you should see to keep you engaged with the platform. Featuring content rather than showing it ordered by some simple criterion like time should be treated as editorializing rather than moderation. If a human editor decides to feature lies I tweet about you on their "best tweets of the week" page, you may be able to sue them for libel. If twitter's algorithm shows lies I tweet about you to a large audience, you currently can't.
sokoloff 6y ago
I agree that the second amendment is often debated as to its intended (or proper) meaning, but I think you're talking about first amendment protections here.
michaelmrose 6y ago
The powers that wont be are complaining about censorship but as we all look back on the last 4 years and all the dead people the people running the government for the last 4 years are more apt to ask social media why they didn't do more.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

trident1000 6y ago

They have every right to do it legally and you're right that the rules will probably change. People say "just go and make another platform" but Google literally tried and failed to make their own (Google+). If they cant do it who really can? Its not happening or it will take centuries/enormous resources to gain traction and compete. So we are left with an oligopoly that is censoring in lockstep and that's an issue for all sides because eventually its not them, its you, with time (amongst other issues). I think the platforms are a huge threat to democracy personally and I hope the new rules are meaningful and not just a knee jerk makeshift reaction.

johannes1234321 6y ago
That argument of "just go and make another platform" is misled anyways: Even if I build another platform: Twitter is still the primary communication channel of the US President. Which means that all secondary users (interested citizens, journalists, ...) hang out there as well. Thus whoever they block there or not has an impact, even if my competitor has a few hundred million users.
Grimm1 6y ago
Google+ just wasn't very good, the argument that no one else can do it doesn't sit right with me because google was half assing that from the beginning.
- trident1000 6y ago
  I think those are the optics because it never took off so it looked half-assed but they made an effort (Google+ was also launched a long time ago so it looks antiquated by todays standards). Maybe a better argument is that its been decades and nobody is meaningfully competing with facebook or Twitter in their respective categories even though there is tremendous economic incentive to do so. Network effects are very difficult to break. When the president is on Twitter nobody wants to be on Bob's basement network. Its locked in a feedback loop. Follow up comment here because Ive apparently reached my limit for a while: I believe you. I still think a Google half-ass is going to be a stronger effort than another start ups full out stab at it. Facebook is the biggest "country" on earth almost by a factor of 2x with 2.7 billion people. Its just other worldy large and difficult to compete with especially today. But I get what you're saying.
  - Grimm1 6y ago
    I was following pretty heavy at the time, and unfortunately "made an effort" looked pretty poor to me. You are right network effects are difficult and if google wanted to throw it's full weight behind the problem instead of just dipping their toes they had the capital to shift opinion. I think this is far more likely google didn't have the will to make that a fully focused problem.
rgbrenner 6y ago
Social media platforms are mature enough that half hearted efforts like Google’s won’t work. But tiktok and Snapchat work. You know: real sustained efforts. Instagram launched 9 months before google plus. That should give you an idea of the landscape that google operated in. Instagram— with 13 employees at acquisition in 2012– works. Google isn’t a determiner of what works. They’re one of the laziest implementers of new services/startups.. they literally throw something out there and try to coast off their name. In markets where the customers are mostly satisfied, lazy stuff like that doesn’t create a winning product.
- trident1000 6y ago
  Sometimes a narrow lane is found in social media in general, but I would argue the competition is still minimal or non existent for crossing lanes. For instance Twitter and snapchat and Tiktok are very different. I view the social media landscape as an oligopoly rather than monopolistic and they rarely cross into each others territory. Also the rate of new meaningful competitors just is not occurring fast enough when a democracy like the US has elections every 4 years. Theres a mismatch in competitor lane crossing and the rate at which democracy operates. Theres been what...2 or 3 major new social networks with limited scope that dont really compete with each other in 20 years on the western side? Its just not enough to make an impact and give people choice especially as we see them act in tandum.
michaelmrose 6y ago
A separate platform requires a compelling story. Google proves merely that money and dev talent aren't enough no matter how much you have of either or both.

aristophenes 6y ago

You’re allowed to say whatever you want and I’m allowed to sue you if you tell lies about me. Twitter and other social media platforms are made exempt from this because they are hosting other people’s content and they’d be sued into oblivion if they could be held responsible for what everyone posts on their service. But as soon as they start censoring whatever they want, they aren’t a true public platform anymore, the content you see is what they want you to see. So they should also be liable to civil suits if the information they allow to disseminate is not true. This isn’t about the second amendment, IMO.

DominoTree 6y ago
It's DEFINITELY not about the second amendment.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  I don't know, maybe content recommendations systems could be considered weapons...
michaelmrose 6y ago
They were NEVER a public platform they were always a private company. Its a commonly repeated untruth that as soon as they start moderating they cease to be protected. Nothing could be further from the truth 230 specifically protects their right to moderate.
- Zak 6y ago
  People advocating that position usually have a very specific idea about how they want sites to be moderated, but section 230 is about not treating platforms as if they're the speaker when one of their users posts illegal speech, regardless of moderation. Of course, politically biased speech is not illegal, so it's really about punishing platforms for moderation somebody doesn't like. A more reasonable target for a 230 carve-out would be recommendation algorithms. Those aren't merely passively hosting user-generated content, but actively selecting what they think you should see to keep you engaged with the platform. Featuring content rather than showing it ordered by some simple criterion like time should be treated as editorializing rather than moderation. If a human editor decides to feature lies I tweet about you on their "best tweets of the week" page, you may be able to sue them for libel. If twitter's algorithm shows lies I tweet about you to a large audience, you currently can't.

sokoloff 6y ago

I agree that the second amendment is often debated as to its intended (or proper) meaning, but I think you're talking about first amendment protections here.

michaelmrose 6y ago

The powers that wont be are complaining about censorship but as we all look back on the last 4 years and all the dead people the people running the government for the last 4 years are more apt to ask social media why they didn't do more.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]