4 ms·

Could it be it's just peoples values are like that? That regular consumers are ignirant and short-sighted and care more about funny games and easy apps instead

Could it be it's just peoples values are like that? That regular consumers are ignirant and short-sighted and care more about funny games and easy apps instead of privacy or quality?

madeofpalk 6y ago
It’s just exceptionally difficult to quantify what “privacy” is. The trade off is between something very tangible vs the intangible
- Razengan 6y ago
  No. > It’s just exceptionally difficult to quantify what “privacy” is. No, it’s really not difficult: Don’t try to learn more about me than what I explicitly choose to tell you myself.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    ... and don't go blabbing about what I've said, unless I asked you to.
  - izacus 6y ago
    That's _your_ definition which may have pretty much nothing to do with how other people see it. We won't be able to have a clear conversation about privacy until every person is on the game page about that. Until you understand that, you'll continue to be "surprised" when people say they care about privacy but not the pet peeve you have.
    - Razengan 6y ago
      How about this then: ___Consent___ Is that exceptionally difficult for you to quantify as well? As someone else said: It isn't that hard at all. Unless, of course, your paycheck is reliant on you not understanding it.
- salawat 6y ago
  Privacy: We talk, and you don't go telling other people what we talked about, or keeping ledgers, or training models, etc. It isn't that hard at all. Unless, of course, your paycheck is reliant on you not understanding it.
  - TheRealPomax 6y ago
    "Ah okay, thanks for the clarification. Sounds like that doesn't apply to the internet then, because I'm just loading websites in a browser, I'm not talking to anyone. Thanks again for clearing that up!" defining privacy in a contextually relevant and concise manner is hard.
    - salawat 6y ago
      Yep. Your problem is you're hiding all the inconvenient logging and generation of metadata propagating knowledge of my communication with your website beyond the scope of what was intended every time you propagate out metrics logs, or transaction data out to other third parties. If you stop at "oh, an HTTP session happened", you're being a disingenuous maker and perpetuate of strawmen. It's almost always what happens with data by actors you invite into that "seemingly private HTTPS transaction" that violate the simplestsocial precept of the technical exchange. Things branch off from there. If you can't see that as a fundamental breach of privacy and professional discretion, then again, it's likely you have a vested interest in not seeing it. It's damned obvious to anyone who doesn't.
    - Razengan 6y ago
      > defining privacy in a contextually relevant and concise manner is hard. How about asking the users what privacy means to them. Why is the concept of "consent" so hard to user-hostile devs?
      - TheRealPomax 6y ago
        Why would Google be interested in getting consent for something they can force without you being able to complain about it? That makes no business sense, and the only thing that makes Google change things is if there are dollars at stake. And then only dollar amounts that move the needle (and if your choice negatively impacts the business by only a million dollars ayear, that's an irrelevant difference for Google. They literally don't care, because a million is peanuts, and does not move the needle)
cblconfederate 6y ago
Maybe if apple or google or FB or any of the massively profitable big tech cared to pay back fairly to creators there would be quality content. Right now with things as they are nobody seriously wants to join the crowd of beggars.
stingraycharles 6y ago
It’s not either this or that. It’s simply that people really don’t care about privacy on the internet, apart from situations they have been taught to be careful (eg internet banking). They simply don’t think about their internet browser, their privacy and Google, in the same way most people don’t care about how toilet paper is made. Sure you can make a strong case why something is bad, but in the end people just keep buying the same brand of toilet paper.
- judge2020 6y ago
  Exactly, and the people that are aware of the data collection see it as payment for getting so many things of value (Gmail, YouTube, chrome) for free.

Could it be it's just peoples values are like that? That regular consumers are ignirant and short-sighted and care more about funny games and easy apps instead of privacy or quality?

madeofpalk 6y ago

It’s just exceptionally difficult to quantify what “privacy” is. The trade off is between something very tangible vs the intangible

Razengan 6y ago
No. > It’s just exceptionally difficult to quantify what “privacy” is. No, it’s really not difficult: Don’t try to learn more about me than what I explicitly choose to tell you myself.
- klyrs 6y ago
  ... and don't go blabbing about what I've said, unless I asked you to.
- izacus 6y ago
  That's _your_ definition which may have pretty much nothing to do with how other people see it. We won't be able to have a clear conversation about privacy until every person is on the game page about that. Until you understand that, you'll continue to be "surprised" when people say they care about privacy but not the pet peeve you have.
  - Razengan 6y ago
    How about this then: ___Consent___ Is that exceptionally difficult for you to quantify as well? As someone else said: It isn't that hard at all. Unless, of course, your paycheck is reliant on you not understanding it.
salawat 6y ago
Privacy: We talk, and you don't go telling other people what we talked about, or keeping ledgers, or training models, etc. It isn't that hard at all. Unless, of course, your paycheck is reliant on you not understanding it.
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  "Ah okay, thanks for the clarification. Sounds like that doesn't apply to the internet then, because I'm just loading websites in a browser, I'm not talking to anyone. Thanks again for clearing that up!" defining privacy in a contextually relevant and concise manner is hard.
  - salawat 6y ago
    Yep. Your problem is you're hiding all the inconvenient logging and generation of metadata propagating knowledge of my communication with your website beyond the scope of what was intended every time you propagate out metrics logs, or transaction data out to other third parties. If you stop at "oh, an HTTP session happened", you're being a disingenuous maker and perpetuate of strawmen. It's almost always what happens with data by actors you invite into that "seemingly private HTTPS transaction" that violate the simplestsocial precept of the technical exchange. Things branch off from there. If you can't see that as a fundamental breach of privacy and professional discretion, then again, it's likely you have a vested interest in not seeing it. It's damned obvious to anyone who doesn't.
  - Razengan 6y ago
    > defining privacy in a contextually relevant and concise manner is hard. How about asking the users what privacy means to them. Why is the concept of "consent" so hard to user-hostile devs?
    - TheRealPomax 6y ago
      Why would Google be interested in getting consent for something they can force without you being able to complain about it? That makes no business sense, and the only thing that makes Google change things is if there are dollars at stake. And then only dollar amounts that move the needle (and if your choice negatively impacts the business by only a million dollars ayear, that's an irrelevant difference for Google. They literally don't care, because a million is peanuts, and does not move the needle)

cblconfederate 6y ago

Maybe if apple or google or FB or any of the massively profitable big tech cared to pay back fairly to creators there would be quality content. Right now with things as they are nobody seriously wants to join the crowd of beggars.

stingraycharles 6y ago

It’s not either this or that. It’s simply that people really don’t care about privacy on the internet, apart from situations they have been taught to be careful (eg internet banking). They simply don’t think about their internet browser, their privacy and Google, in the same way most people don’t care about how toilet paper is made. Sure you can make a strong case why something is bad, but in the end people just keep buying the same brand of toilet paper.

judge2020 6y ago
Exactly, and the people that are aware of the data collection see it as payment for getting so many things of value (Gmail, YouTube, chrome) for free.