6 ms·

I honestly dont understand their strategy. These "wins" are only sustainable if they never open their borders. And once they do, covid and influenza will come b

by air7 6y ago

I honestly dont understand their strategy. These "wins" are only sustainable if they never open their borders. And once they do, covid and influenza will come back. Only option I can see is to maintain isolation until a vaccine is available but that could be a long way away.

varjag 6y ago
A domestic economy undisrupted by COVID appears to be a larger upside than unrestricted international travel.
- tshaddox 6y ago
  That should be pretty clear, given that the choices are between 1) no tourism economy or domestic economy and 2) no tourism economy.
  - lostlogin 6y ago
    I’m surprised I haven’t seen it phrased this way before, it’s very accurate. The long version could add in the damage to things like cafes, restaurants etc with Covid. Dark times.
  - gHosts 6y ago
    Actually, reality has fine print.... Instead of overseas visitors spending in NZ and rich NZ'ers spending their tourist dollars overseas .... the richer NZ'ers are spending locally. Turns out not as different as the doomsayers predicted.
bbarn 6y ago
I'm so sick of seeing New Zealand get praise for it's response. Just like Iceland, it's a tiny ass island, and yes - if you close your borders, don't produce or import anything globally, of course you'll knock it out. Then you open up again (just like we did here in Iceland) and boom, covid skyrockets again. It's not magic, it's just hiding in a cave.
- markdown 6y ago
  > Then you open up again (just like we did here in Iceland) That was the stupid part, and predictable. > It's not magic, it's just hiding in a cave. Exactly! Great strategy, so simple to implement and saves the most lives.
  - konjin 6y ago
    >Exactly! Great strategy, so simple to implement and saves the most lives. The stone age population is a fair bit lower than the one we have now.
- nobbis 6y ago
  FYI, NZ is multiple islands the size of the UK with a population 15x that of Iceland.
  - bencollier49 6y ago
    And I just noticed that their population density is between those of Sweden and Argentina.
- nanna 6y ago
  You're projecting Iceland onto NZ just because they're relatively remote island nations. Iceland is very European in its skeptical and resentful response to the low-tech response to covid: masking, washing hands, social distancing. That's why when people have brought covid over it has spread through society like it has. People in NZ by the sounds of it are acting much more like ppl in SE/E Asia, adopting the low tech WHO strategy. That's why things are as they are in NZ, and why Iceland keeps suffering from outbreaks. And it's why your analogy of Iceland and NZ is a false one.
- gHosts 6y ago
  > if you close your borders, don't produce or import anything globally. We're producing and exporting and importing just fine thank you. Borders are closed to casual visitors, not goods. Yup, that can (and just has) create opportunities for the virus to enter. But that is a risk that can and is being managed.
konjin 6y ago
Me neither. This would be the most anti-immigrant and anti-tourist policy I could imagine and something a far right government in an Eastern European hell hole would implement to keep undesirables away. That it's being celebrated as a victory by supposed progressives is giving me a headache. Turns out immigrants are dirty disease carriers who we must be isolated from the rest of us clean volk. And all it took for people to agree to this is for Trump to be against it. I can't imagine anyone being for it if Trump locked up every Mexican for two weeks before letting them in the US and fining/arresting/deporting everyone who tried to avoid the quarantine - no humans are illegal.
- fredophile 6y ago
  You're right. If Trump tried to only apply a two week quarantine to people coming from Mexico people would be against it. If he'd done a quarantine for all people entering the US back when there were only a handful of cases we'd be in a much better place right now. I suspect that would have been viewed as an overreaction by many people but based on what we've learned since then I think people would've come around.
  - konjin 6y ago
    I haven't see anyone talking about policy since Trump got elected. I've seen people screaming for their teams and calling everyone who disagrees with them a fascist. To the point an actual fascist policy like that of NZ is celebrated as a progressive victory. It is a confusing time to be alive.
    - tshaddox 6y ago
      If you literally have not seen any criticism of Trump’s policies then you are not looking at, well, any remotely relevant media whatsoever.
      - konjin 6y ago
        I have seen criticism of Trump masquerading as policy criticism and a large memory hole of all the times Democrats had implemented the same policies. Now I'm seeing more criticism of Trump masquerading as praise for NZ and a large memory hole of the fact that this is a literal fascist policy.
markdown 6y ago
> I honestly dont understand their strategy. But you do. See you got it here: > Only option I can see is to maintain isolation until a vaccine is available What puzzles me is why you don't see this as the only good strategy for any country that has the capacity to attempt it. It's the strategy that saves most lives. There are currently 10 countries in the Pacific, including NZ, that have no COVID cases. They could form a bubble and allow travel between them. Yesterday kiwis were allowed to fly to Australia and enter the general population without quarantine.
- konjin 6y ago
  Because waiting for a new invention as part of policy is idiotic. Science does not work a on schedule. A vaccine is not 12 months away, it can be invented tomorrow, or it can never be invented because it never becomes more than 5% effective.
  - markdown 6y ago
    And so they'll be holed up a while. So? The vast majority of humans never leave their countries their entire lives. If the time comes that they're willing to let their elders die so the wealthiest among them can travel or fOr tHE eCoNOmY, they can always open up their borders. What they have is a choice. They had their elections last night and governing party was re-elected by a landslide, which means the people are happy with their current strategy. > waiting for a new invention as part of policy is idiotic. Saving lives and buying time is not idiotic.
    - konjin 6y ago
      >The vast majority of humans never leave their countries their entire lives. The majority of people in New Zealand are 0th of 1st generation immigrants. The majority leave the country at least once a year and have multiple citizenships. >Saving lives and buying time is not idiotic. Yes, Queen Victoria buying time for the invention of penicillin is idiotic.
      - 6y ago
8note 6y ago
They can also wait until there's cheap and effective treatments. By not having an epidemic, they continue to have the initiative to choose next steps, rather than having to react to the virus
gojomo 6y ago
Vaccines are imminent. And, they could progressively open their borders to those presenting with negligible carrier risk. Sufficiently voluminous & cheap testing can keep traveller risk very low, as well as the growing number of travellers who are recovered-immune & vaccinated.
abraae 6y ago
It's a numbers game. Hide out for a year or two. Protect vulnerable members of society and preserve a mostly normal way of life, except for tourism industry (which is largely dead regardless of what we choose to do in NZ). If there's a vaccine in 2021 it will turn out to have been a good bet.
thomasfromcdnjs 6y ago
Why is he being down voted? And why do so many people have almost near certain confidence that there will be a vaccine? We have never made a successful beta corona virus vaccine, some doctors think it impossible because of the the nature of respiratory viruses.

by air7 6y ago

varjag 6y ago

A domestic economy undisrupted by COVID appears to be a larger upside than unrestricted international travel.

tshaddox 6y ago
That should be pretty clear, given that the choices are between 1) no tourism economy or domestic economy and 2) no tourism economy.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  I’m surprised I haven’t seen it phrased this way before, it’s very accurate. The long version could add in the damage to things like cafes, restaurants etc with Covid. Dark times.
- gHosts 6y ago
  Actually, reality has fine print.... Instead of overseas visitors spending in NZ and rich NZ'ers spending their tourist dollars overseas .... the richer NZ'ers are spending locally. Turns out not as different as the doomsayers predicted.

bbarn 6y ago

I'm so sick of seeing New Zealand get praise for it's response. Just like Iceland, it's a tiny ass island, and yes - if you close your borders, don't produce or import anything globally, of course you'll knock it out. Then you open up again (just like we did here in Iceland) and boom, covid skyrockets again. It's not magic, it's just hiding in a cave.

markdown 6y ago
> Then you open up again (just like we did here in Iceland) That was the stupid part, and predictable. > It's not magic, it's just hiding in a cave. Exactly! Great strategy, so simple to implement and saves the most lives.
- konjin 6y ago
  >Exactly! Great strategy, so simple to implement and saves the most lives. The stone age population is a fair bit lower than the one we have now.
nobbis 6y ago
FYI, NZ is multiple islands the size of the UK with a population 15x that of Iceland.
- bencollier49 6y ago
  And I just noticed that their population density is between those of Sweden and Argentina.
nanna 6y ago
You're projecting Iceland onto NZ just because they're relatively remote island nations. Iceland is very European in its skeptical and resentful response to the low-tech response to covid: masking, washing hands, social distancing. That's why when people have brought covid over it has spread through society like it has. People in NZ by the sounds of it are acting much more like ppl in SE/E Asia, adopting the low tech WHO strategy. That's why things are as they are in NZ, and why Iceland keeps suffering from outbreaks. And it's why your analogy of Iceland and NZ is a false one.
gHosts 6y ago
> if you close your borders, don't produce or import anything globally. We're producing and exporting and importing just fine thank you. Borders are closed to casual visitors, not goods. Yup, that can (and just has) create opportunities for the virus to enter. But that is a risk that can and is being managed.

konjin 6y ago

Me neither. This would be the most anti-immigrant and anti-tourist policy I could imagine and something a far right government in an Eastern European hell hole would implement to keep undesirables away. That it's being celebrated as a victory by supposed progressives is giving me a headache. Turns out immigrants are dirty disease carriers who we must be isolated from the rest of us clean volk. And all it took for people to agree to this is for Trump to be against it. I can't imagine anyone being for it if Trump locked up every Mexican for two weeks before letting them in the US and fining/arresting/deporting everyone who tried to avoid the quarantine - no humans are illegal.

fredophile 6y ago
You're right. If Trump tried to only apply a two week quarantine to people coming from Mexico people would be against it. If he'd done a quarantine for all people entering the US back when there were only a handful of cases we'd be in a much better place right now. I suspect that would have been viewed as an overreaction by many people but based on what we've learned since then I think people would've come around.
- konjin 6y ago
  I haven't see anyone talking about policy since Trump got elected. I've seen people screaming for their teams and calling everyone who disagrees with them a fascist. To the point an actual fascist policy like that of NZ is celebrated as a progressive victory. It is a confusing time to be alive.
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    If you literally have not seen any criticism of Trump’s policies then you are not looking at, well, any remotely relevant media whatsoever.
    - konjin 6y ago
      I have seen criticism of Trump masquerading as policy criticism and a large memory hole of all the times Democrats had implemented the same policies. Now I'm seeing more criticism of Trump masquerading as praise for NZ and a large memory hole of the fact that this is a literal fascist policy.

markdown 6y ago

> I honestly dont understand their strategy. But you do. See you got it here: > Only option I can see is to maintain isolation until a vaccine is available What puzzles me is why you don't see this as the only good strategy for any country that has the capacity to attempt it. It's the strategy that saves most lives. There are currently 10 countries in the Pacific, including NZ, that have no COVID cases. They could form a bubble and allow travel between them. Yesterday kiwis were allowed to fly to Australia and enter the general population without quarantine.

konjin 6y ago
Because waiting for a new invention as part of policy is idiotic. Science does not work a on schedule. A vaccine is not 12 months away, it can be invented tomorrow, or it can never be invented because it never becomes more than 5% effective.
- markdown 6y ago
  And so they'll be holed up a while. So? The vast majority of humans never leave their countries their entire lives. If the time comes that they're willing to let their elders die so the wealthiest among them can travel or fOr tHE eCoNOmY, they can always open up their borders. What they have is a choice. They had their elections last night and governing party was re-elected by a landslide, which means the people are happy with their current strategy. > waiting for a new invention as part of policy is idiotic. Saving lives and buying time is not idiotic.
  - konjin 6y ago
    >The vast majority of humans never leave their countries their entire lives. The majority of people in New Zealand are 0th of 1st generation immigrants. The majority leave the country at least once a year and have multiple citizenships. >Saving lives and buying time is not idiotic. Yes, Queen Victoria buying time for the invention of penicillin is idiotic.
    - 6y ago

8note 6y ago

They can also wait until there's cheap and effective treatments. By not having an epidemic, they continue to have the initiative to choose next steps, rather than having to react to the virus

gojomo 6y ago

Vaccines are imminent. And, they could progressively open their borders to those presenting with negligible carrier risk. Sufficiently voluminous & cheap testing can keep traveller risk very low, as well as the growing number of travellers who are recovered-immune & vaccinated.

abraae 6y ago

It's a numbers game. Hide out for a year or two. Protect vulnerable members of society and preserve a mostly normal way of life, except for tourism industry (which is largely dead regardless of what we choose to do in NZ). If there's a vaccine in 2021 it will turn out to have been a good bet.

thomasfromcdnjs 6y ago

Why is he being down voted? And why do so many people have almost near certain confidence that there will be a vaccine? We have never made a successful beta corona virus vaccine, some doctors think it impossible because of the the nature of respiratory viruses.