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I do wonder if part of the reason is abuse by people who wanted to try a Tesla but had no intention of buying. I never did it, because I just couldn't have liv

I do wonder if part of the reason is abuse by people who wanted to try a Tesla but had no intention of buying. I never did it, because I just couldn't have lived with myself[0], but about a year ago a friend and I popped into the Tesla micro-showroom in Cambridge (UK) and I realised I could order the Tesla Model S P100D with self-driving add-on - and otherwise customised to my exact preferences - for what amounts to an extended test drive and then return it no questions asked. It struck me as pretty ludicrous but I won't say I wasn't tempted. At the time the P100D was the top-end model S, and cost ~£100k. It's not a car I could realistically afford although I'm sure finance would have been approved[1], and they would simply have delivered it to my house. Then I could have driven it around for a week and just returned it: a car I had no intention of paying for in the first place. It's really not OK, but I imagine quite a few people have done it, so I can see why that might push them to a policy change, especially if baseline returns for other reasons - such as QC issues - were also high. (One day I'd still really like a Tesla but even if I could afford the one I'd most want, for that kind of money an Audi RS6 or one of the AMG estates are more practical propositions. And then for about the same money as the Model 3 there's the Volvo V60 hybrid, with 398bhp and plenty of load space. I do like Tesla so I really wish they did an estate/station wagon. Wagons are extremely handy, especially with AWD, and especially for people like me who often make use of that cargo capacity but hate SUVs and trucks due to their bulk, and overall poor economy and driving dynamics. Still, I can understand that isn't the way the market is going - shame though.) [0] Honestly, I was also worried I might want to keep it, and would come up with all sorts of justifications as to why it obviously made sense for me to put myself in a hole for a car. I ride motorbikes. I know what it feels like to go from 0 to 60 in less than 2.5 seconds. I don't need a Tesla for that, and bikes are a lot cheaper. But I was concerned that in the heat of the moment I might lose that perspective. [1] I also worry about residual values at the end of any finance deal due to the batteries and, in general, Tesla's reputation for dicey quality, high maintenance costs, and less than stellar reliability.

dstroot 6y ago
I never heard of anyone doing this. I did hear many people, myself included, who bought a Tesla and were delivered a brand new car with immediately noticeable quality issues. You are strongly pushed to “accept delivery” because a) you can always return it within 7 days, and b) Tesla will “fix everything”. Your car will not be fixed in the first seven days and will also not be able to return it. Most forums and blogs strongly encourage buyers to just refuse delivery if you find quality issues. Maybe the 7 day return policy was no longer working to get people to accept delivery.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Then you fix your quality issues, you don't get rid of the return policy.
  - kencausey 6y ago
    Is that the right thing to do? Absolutely. But clearly one solution is much harder than the other.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      Only one of these is a solution. The other is a cop-out.
      - kencausey 6y ago
        Granted.
- asddubs 6y ago
  yeah I know someone who works in transporting cars, and he said the paint job on the brand new teslas is often pretty atrocious, but the customers coming to pick them up never seem to complain
zepearl 6y ago
I did buy a Volvo V60 hybrid (which is now called "recharge", which used to be called "twin engine") in July :) Maybe they aren't having a lot of problems selling cars as I'm still waiting for it to be delivered - the current ETA is December :P I had a wagon during the last 14 years and it was nice - I hope that the Volvo will be a good successor (first time I buy a Volvo). I never felt the need for more height (SUV) but the extra length of a wagon has been often useful , of course especially when carrying around long stuff (e.g. mattress, furniture, ...). The on-demand AWD of the Volvo hybrid without having the maintenance costs for the mechanical transmission to the rear axle was one of the things that made me focus on that car.
- gambiting 6y ago
  The plug-in hybrid volvo models have an extremely long waiting time, the average for a new XC60 T8 is about 9 months. Funnily enough I also bought a Volvo instead of a Tesla, I tried to arrange a test drive of one but was having a really hard time getting anyone to get back to me and actually arrange anything, went and test drove a new XC60 T8, ordered one the next day. Fortunately the dealership already had a few in the pipeline so I waited "only" 3 months instead of 9, but yeah, well worth the wait and I'm very glad I didn't go with the Tesla.
  - zepearl 6y ago
    The XC60 is nice as well. The only thing that I did not like much when I did the test drive with the V60 was the very light steering wheel. I then think that I read later in the manual that apparently it's possible to increase the resistance somewhere in the car's settings, but I'm not sure anymore => do you know by chance if yours has that setting?
    - gambiting 6y ago
      Uhm as far as I know all Volvo cars have the exact same Sensus system, and I cannot alter the steering sensitivity on mine. The car does have "speed sensitive steering" though, which means that at low speeds there is almost zero resistance on the steering wheel, but quite a lot more at higher speeds. Edit: Well, looking at the manual apparently it is possible, but only in the individual drive mode: https://www.volvocars.com/en-sa/support/manuals/xc60/2018w46/seats-and-steering-wheel/steering-wheel/speed-dependent-steering-force https://www.volvocars.com/en-sa/support/manuals/xc60/2018w46... Which....is less than ideal, I frequently switch between Hybrid/Pure/Power, so having to stay in one of them just to have a tighter steering response is not acceptable.
chrisseaton 6y ago
Isn't it a lot of work to order, wait, and take delivery of a car, and have £100k or whatever on your credit report, and then reversing of all of that... just to get a test drive? Do they not do test drives anyway? £100k or whatever is a hell of a deposit for a test drive! I just wish Tesla did a proper SUV. The Model X isn't any kind of SUV - it's just a big hatchback. Doesn't look like it'd really be capable off-road compared to something serious like a Land Rover.
- lanevorockz 6y ago
  Usually it's next day .. likely you can get the car faster than booking a test drive. Also, you are not failing to pay so it doesn't affect your credit. No consequences
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Also, you are not failing to pay so it doesn't affect your credit. No consequences. Yes not a failing to pay... but doesn't your credit report suddenly show £100k against your name? And they'll assume the car's deprecated so you'll be underwater. That's not as bad as failing to pay but I wouldn't want to be applying for a mortgage the next month.
    - steffan 6y ago
      That’s not really how credit reports work. At least in the U.S. a loan typically doesn’t report until the first statement period usually 30-60 days after loan issuance. Most likely it would just show as a paid loan after you returned the car.
  - will_pseudonym 6y ago
    Technically the act of requesting and obtaining a loan would involve a hard inquiry on your credit report. [0] It isn't a huge ding and only lasts for about 2 years (and trails off in impact over that time period), but if you did so repeatedly, that would be a negative signal to future lenders. https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/credit-education/report-basics/hard-vs-soft-inquiries-on-your-credit-report/ https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/credit-education...
joshribakoff 6y ago
When I told them I was in the market they offered to just let me take one home for a few overnights, as an extended test drive. This used to be a common thing they offer, not sure if it still is.
sizzle 6y ago
I'd imagine the credit hit you get when the financing arm of Tesla does a hard inquiry when running your credit and then dropping your credit score is a pretty good deterrent for most finance literate people (credit score is sacred to many).

dstroot 6y ago

I never heard of anyone doing this. I did hear many people, myself included, who bought a Tesla and were delivered a brand new car with immediately noticeable quality issues. You are strongly pushed to “accept delivery” because a) you can always return it within 7 days, and b) Tesla will “fix everything”. Your car will not be fixed in the first seven days and will also not be able to return it. Most forums and blogs strongly encourage buyers to just refuse delivery if you find quality issues. Maybe the 7 day return policy was no longer working to get people to accept delivery.

jacquesm 6y ago
Then you fix your quality issues, you don't get rid of the return policy.
- kencausey 6y ago
  Is that the right thing to do? Absolutely. But clearly one solution is much harder than the other.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Only one of these is a solution. The other is a cop-out.
    - kencausey 6y ago
      Granted.
asddubs 6y ago
yeah I know someone who works in transporting cars, and he said the paint job on the brand new teslas is often pretty atrocious, but the customers coming to pick them up never seem to complain

zepearl 6y ago

I did buy a Volvo V60 hybrid (which is now called "recharge", which used to be called "twin engine") in July :) Maybe they aren't having a lot of problems selling cars as I'm still waiting for it to be delivered - the current ETA is December :P I had a wagon during the last 14 years and it was nice - I hope that the Volvo will be a good successor (first time I buy a Volvo). I never felt the need for more height (SUV) but the extra length of a wagon has been often useful , of course especially when carrying around long stuff (e.g. mattress, furniture, ...). The on-demand AWD of the Volvo hybrid without having the maintenance costs for the mechanical transmission to the rear axle was one of the things that made me focus on that car.

gambiting 6y ago
The plug-in hybrid volvo models have an extremely long waiting time, the average for a new XC60 T8 is about 9 months. Funnily enough I also bought a Volvo instead of a Tesla, I tried to arrange a test drive of one but was having a really hard time getting anyone to get back to me and actually arrange anything, went and test drove a new XC60 T8, ordered one the next day. Fortunately the dealership already had a few in the pipeline so I waited "only" 3 months instead of 9, but yeah, well worth the wait and I'm very glad I didn't go with the Tesla.
- zepearl 6y ago
  The XC60 is nice as well. The only thing that I did not like much when I did the test drive with the V60 was the very light steering wheel. I then think that I read later in the manual that apparently it's possible to increase the resistance somewhere in the car's settings, but I'm not sure anymore => do you know by chance if yours has that setting?
  - gambiting 6y ago
    Uhm as far as I know all Volvo cars have the exact same Sensus system, and I cannot alter the steering sensitivity on mine. The car does have "speed sensitive steering" though, which means that at low speeds there is almost zero resistance on the steering wheel, but quite a lot more at higher speeds. Edit: Well, looking at the manual apparently it is possible, but only in the individual drive mode: https://www.volvocars.com/en-sa/support/manuals/xc60/2018w46/seats-and-steering-wheel/steering-wheel/speed-dependent-steering-force https://www.volvocars.com/en-sa/support/manuals/xc60/2018w46... Which....is less than ideal, I frequently switch between Hybrid/Pure/Power, so having to stay in one of them just to have a tighter steering response is not acceptable.

chrisseaton 6y ago

Isn't it a lot of work to order, wait, and take delivery of a car, and have £100k or whatever on your credit report, and then reversing of all of that... just to get a test drive? Do they not do test drives anyway? £100k or whatever is a hell of a deposit for a test drive! I just wish Tesla did a proper SUV. The Model X isn't any kind of SUV - it's just a big hatchback. Doesn't look like it'd really be capable off-road compared to something serious like a Land Rover.

lanevorockz 6y ago
Usually it's next day .. likely you can get the car faster than booking a test drive. Also, you are not failing to pay so it doesn't affect your credit. No consequences
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Also, you are not failing to pay so it doesn't affect your credit. No consequences. Yes not a failing to pay... but doesn't your credit report suddenly show £100k against your name? And they'll assume the car's deprecated so you'll be underwater. That's not as bad as failing to pay but I wouldn't want to be applying for a mortgage the next month.
  - steffan 6y ago
    That’s not really how credit reports work. At least in the U.S. a loan typically doesn’t report until the first statement period usually 30-60 days after loan issuance. Most likely it would just show as a paid loan after you returned the car.
- will_pseudonym 6y ago
  Technically the act of requesting and obtaining a loan would involve a hard inquiry on your credit report. [0] It isn't a huge ding and only lasts for about 2 years (and trails off in impact over that time period), but if you did so repeatedly, that would be a negative signal to future lenders. https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/credit-education/report-basics/hard-vs-soft-inquiries-on-your-credit-report/ https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/credit-education...

joshribakoff 6y ago

When I told them I was in the market they offered to just let me take one home for a few overnights, as an extended test drive. This used to be a common thing they offer, not sure if it still is.

sizzle 6y ago

I'd imagine the credit hit you get when the financing arm of Tesla does a hard inquiry when running your credit and then dropping your credit score is a pretty good deterrent for most finance literate people (credit score is sacred to many).