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Tesla cancels its ‘no questions asked’ 7-day return policy
- Tepix 6y agoThe obvious reason is that there were too many returns. I hope Tesla gets its quality issues under control.
- bdcravens 6y agoWhile I think we all know about Tesla's quality issues, I think there's also an issue of people not realizing exactly what they are buying, so they treated that first seven days like a long test drive.
- dlp211 6y agoWhy shouldn't they?
- srtjstjsj 6y agoBecause if that's what you want, you should rent a rental vehicle for $300, not a brand new one.
- toast0 6y agoIf Tesla (or some other car company) says try our car for seven days and if you don't like it, bring it back, why would I pay $300 for a rental if I thought I was going to like it? Especially with a Tesla where there's a lot of fiddly details and mid year changes, a rental may be a lot different than one you can buy. Some rental sales agencies do it the other way --- rent this car for a week, and if you like it, the rental cost goes towards the purchase price.
- bdcravens 6y ago$300 would rent you a Corolla for a week, not a Tesla. A quick check shows that would be closer $1500 for a week.
- gargarplex 6y agoOr they realize they have a business model where people are willing to fork over serious money to test drive a Tesla for a week.
- themantra514 6y agoPR dept dissolved just ahead of the "no questions" return policy. No questions, no problem.
- babesh 6y agoThey have a de facto PR department. Go ask Elon on Twitter. You may or may not get an answer.
- themantra514 6y agoElon only tweets to pump stonks with fomo insinuations or rage so I'll pass on that option. Ttyl heading out to the cottage in my tank, aka 1991 Toyota Camry :D
- babesh 6y agoI encourage everyone to make their own mind up with data instead of listening to someone else’s opinions. https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk
- clouddrover 6y agoMusk uses Twitter to express himself. He says Twitter is a war zone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIzGdoPu9vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIzGdoPu9vs
- babesh 6y agoLike I said, just look at the data. Does he or does he not answer questions people have? Expressing himself does not preclude him from answering questions. It’s logic. A being true does not preclude B being true unless B = not(A). https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk
- clouddrover 6y ago
- IkmoIkmo 6y agoObviously, but the reason is unclear. Quality issues? Or people abusing it by taking a 5 day citytrip and bringing it back? etc
- myself248 6y agoI think you can only do it once, so using it as a "rental" seems unlikely. Given how excited I was for the Model 3, and how disillusioned I got after handling one for a few days when a client brought one in to have some equipment installed in it, I'd suspect it's some combination of quality issues and simply varying expectations. Tesla makes a LOT of decisions differently than other automakers, and there are plenty of people who love that, but also some who realize they're not comfortable with the car trying to outsmart them so often. And that's the sort of thing that might not sink in on a 20-minute test drive, but which you'd definitely feel after a few days.
- perl4ever 6y agoI got a new 2021 vehicle, not a Tesla, but with the latest assistive tech that they are putting on even low-end cars now, and while it is pretty neat, even from a "traditional" manufacturer it doesn't seem fully baked. My first drive on a rainy, foggy night, everything went haywire, although given the limited ambitions of the systems, it wasn't serious. The recognition of speed limits somehow failed so that it thought it was 70 mph everywhere. It couldn't recognize the lane markings, so it's jiggling the wheel and flashing warnings when I'm in the fast lane on the interstate, and for an instant I think I'm hydroplaning. Not helpful. I think it has radar cruise control, which I haven't tried out yet, but I'm not sure if I trust it. And I sure hope the auto-braking doesn't do anything weird. It did warn me a couple days ago that someone stopped in front of me to turn left, but if I couldn't see that, I would still have had an accident.
- myself248 6y agoYeah, I work in advanced safety systems, and I'm pretty comfortable with most of those things. They have their limitations, and there are times when they should be turned off, but on the whole I appreciate them. Blind-spot warning in particular, but that's pretty old now. (Incidentally, the auto braking likely would've kicked in if you hadn't reacted on your own, but it's set to not touch anything until it's at the panic-stop point. This is partly to keep drivers from getting lazy and relying on it.) What bugged me about the Tesla was the controls more than anything. There's no "off". There's no manual anything, and the overrides are buried so deep in the touchscreen, heaven help you if you forget where one is located. The car knows when it should be on, and when it should lock and unlock, and if you have different ideas about those things (heaven forbid you want to leave it unlocked while it's parked in a garage), you're going to have a bad time. I gotta call those folks up and ask for my deposit back, I'm never gonna use it.
- vl 6y agoNot really obvious. This policy applied only if you didn’t do a test-drive, and anyone I know who bought a Tesla did a test-drive.
- rasz 6y agoNot in EU they didnt https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua... >14 day cooling off period >In the EU you have the right to return purchases made online or through other types of distance selling, such as by phone, mail order or from a door-to-door salesperson, within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.
- pxeboot 6y ago>The 14-day cooling off period does not apply to all purchases >Please note that this list is not exhaustive
- Gwypaas 6y agoCertain exceptions from the right of withdrawal should exist, both for distance and off-premises contracts. A right of withdrawal could be inappropriate for example given the nature of particular goods or services. That is the case for example with wine supplied a long time after the conclusion of a contract of a speculative nature where the value is dependent on fluctuations in the market (‘vin en primeur’). The right of withdrawal should neither apply to goods made to the consumer’s specifications or which are clearly personalised such as tailor-made curtains, nor to the supply of fuel, for example, which is a good, by nature inseparably mixed with other items after delivery. The granting of a right of withdrawal to the consumer could also be inappropriate in the case of certain services where the conclusion of the contract implies the setting aside of capacity which, if a right of withdrawal were exercised, the trader may find difficult to fill. This would for example be the case where reservations are made at hotels or concerning holiday cottages or cultural or sporting events. Regarding how much you can test out an item, for example underwear or in ear headphones can't be sent back. Some consumers exercise their right of withdrawal after having used the goods to an extent more than necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and the functioning of the goods. In this case the consumer should not lose the right to withdraw but should be liable for any diminished value of the goods. In order to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods, the consumer should only handle and inspect them in the same manner as he would be allowed to do in a shop. For example, the consumer should only try on a garment and should not be allowed to wear it. Consequently, the consumer should handle and inspect the goods with due care during the withdrawal period. The obligations of the consumer in the event of withdrawal should not discourage the consumer from exercising his right of withdrawal. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32011L0083&qid=1403274218893 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...
- bryan0 6y agoI guess the roof flying off a Model Y on the way home from the dealership isn’t covered under this policy because I would consider that “damage to the vehicle” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24708233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24708233
- TrainedMonkey 6y agoI am guessing that would be covered under new car lemon laws.
- crisdux 6y agoIn most states the manufacturer must be given reasonable opportunity to fix the problem. For how drastic the roof falling off is, I don't think lemon laws grant consumers the ability to just turn in a defected car.
- jacquesm 6y agoI think it should though. Clearly, the company selling those vehicles is not capable of delivering what the consumer expected. "Roof Fell Off" is not a checkbox on the consumer quality reports, and it never should be.
- markdown 6y agoClearly that particular vehicle should have been towed outside the environment.
- zaroth 6y ago> The family returned to the Tesla service center in the new white Model Y, where the staff apologized, told them they hadn't seen anything like this before, offered to service the car, and gave the family a rental, Nathaniel Chien said. The Chiens declined to have the Model Y serviced, instead choosing to return it altogether. Tesla also gave the owners the option of a repair or to just to get a different new one.
- Gunax 6y agoMy guess is it was abused. Cannot have good things because too many people will not just take advantage of the return policy, but take advantage of it.
- Someone1234 6y agoMy guess, based on reading Tesla forums, is more that they have such poor QA that a lot of customers were 7-day returning vehicles that Tesla told them would take months just to get the parts/service for a brand-new vehicle (e.g. panel gaps, poor sealing, unknown rattling/noises, etc). They're trying to "solve" their ongoing QA problems by removing a customer safety net rather than addressing the underlying cause. I'm sure their metrics could be used to show abuse, but really it is Tesla's own community creating things like their own QA checklists which people were encouraged to go through on the first 7 and return if an expedient fix wasn't available.
- srtjstjsj 6y agoOr Tesla is taking advantage of buyers by putting out shoddy cars.
- EpicEng 6y agoHow does one take advantage of a "no questions asked" return policy? It's literally intended to give a customer confidence in the product they're buying as they can return it for _any_ reason. My assumption is that they overestimated their own product and saw far more returns than they had anticipated.
- tpmx 6y agoAnyone thinking about buying a Tesla needs to follow r/RealTesla for a month before pulling the trigger (unless they're worth perhaps more than 10x-20x the cost of the car).
- jsight 6y agoBut keep in mind there is no analagous r/RealAudi or r/RealFord to form a baseline.
- tpmx 6y agoI've found other car manufacturer-specific subreddits to be significantly less crazy/religious/cultist than r/teslamotors. I don't think there's a real need for that.
- jsight 6y agoI don't disagree. But I've also found them to have fewer influxes of non-owners that are there just to say negative things. FWIW, I spend some time in both r/teslamotors and r/realtesla. There are pretty clear reasons that both exist, and pretty clear reasons for some frustrations on both sides.
- Buldak 6y agoMaybe that fact is telling in itself. No one is preventing anyone from making r/RealFord, I assume.
- jsight 6y agoIt is telling. The Tesla fan reddit has 824k subscribers. The BMW reddit? 163k. Audi? 91k. Tesla attracts a vastly more active audience than most other automakers, and the results are interesting. One should be REALLY cautious about drawing broad conclusions, positive or negative from the anecdotes from either (r/realtesla or r/teslamotors) group.
- 6y ago
- chrisseaton 6y agoDon't you already have the statutory right in most countries to no-questions-asked return an item that you bought through distance selling? And it's normally 14 days isn't it?
- alistairSH 6y agoNot in the US. There is no federal law that protects all (or even most) purchases. State law may very, but I'm not aware of any that have particularly consumer-friendly laws that include new car purchases.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y agoI believe that the EU has it, although I'm not sure about exemptions (e.g. what happens with made-to-order cars)
- chrisseaton 6y agoIf they're options listed in a standard brochure anyone can order then I think it's covered.
- falcolas 6y agohttps://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0176-buyers-remorse-when-ftcs-cooling-rule-may-help https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0176-buyers-remorse-wh... > The FTC’s Cooling-Off Rule gives you a 3-day right to cancel a sale ... Doesn't feel like it could cover Tesla sales, however, since "made entirely online" and "automobiles ... sold at temporary locations" both fall under exemptions. Anachronistic exemptions, honestly. Some other options: https://www.moneyunder30.com/buyers-remorse-laws https://www.moneyunder30.com/buyers-remorse-laws
- goatinaboat 6y agoSo this is what the hilarious price change to $69,420 was intended to cover. Clever work, Elon.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- nemo44x 6y agoTesla doesn’t have a PR team and their Berlin factory was recently shutdown because they forgot to pay their water bill. And now this policy is apparently pulled with no notification? What is going on with the management there?
- tachyonbeam 6y agoTesla got a new water supply contract with a different company, and the Berlin factory construction was never stopped at any point. There's video evidence to prove it.
- foepys 6y agoHow is it FUD when the water supplier itself said that Tesla didn't pay its bills and thus turned off the water? https://m.dw.com/en/germany-water-turned-off-at-tesla-gigafactory-over-unpaid-bills/a-55292250 https://m.dw.com/en/germany-water-turned-off-at-tesla-gigafa... What's the name of the new water supply company? The agreement they signed a few days ago was with the same supplier that just turned off the water. What most likely happened was that Tesla quickly paid their bills and got the water running again and are spinning this to hide their embarrassment. The "bigger line" they are talking about is the permanent underground line they got built and can finally use. Before that they used temporary overground lines.
- tachyonbeam 6y agoIt's possible that someone somewhere made a mistake and the bill never made it to where it should go. They were working on getting a larger water pipeline installed AFAIK. The factory construction wasn't stopped because of this though. People film the Berlin site with drones daily.
- foepys 6y agoThe water supplier said they sent multiple reminders and waited 14 days after the last reminder before turning it off. This is standard procedure in Germany.
- Animats 6y agoTesla wanted to avoid having dealerships and sell cars mostly on the Internet. That requires a lenient return policy. Now Tesla will run into "lemon law" problems.[1] Tesla has exhausted the supply of uncritical fanboys, and is past being the only good electric car manufacturer. Now they have to compete with BMW and Mercedes, who also sell good electric cars. The $50K-$100K "luxury" segment is overcrowded, and those companies are better at fit and finish. [1] https://www.dmv.com/ca/california/lemon-law https://www.dmv.com/ca/california/lemon-law
- ohmaigad 6y agoMercedes only has EQC which isn't even being sold in the USA and BMW has no good EVs (i3 is a niche product). I don't know about USA but i think that in Europe Tesla biggest competitors are actually "lower" tier manufacturers like Hyundai, KIA, Renault, Nissan, VW and the only premium competitor is Audi.
- foepys 6y agoYou missed Porsche's Taycan. The already in production VW ID.4 is a direct competitor to the new Model Y, the ID.3 to the Model 3.
- sjwright 6y agoThe VW ID3/4 are not remotely competitors, other than being compact electric cars. Very different size, performance and materials quality.
- akmarinov 6y agoSizes are comparable to M3 and MY. Performance and range favor Tesla. Build quality favors VW.
- sjwright 6y agoI was responding to a person who said they were direct competitors. I agree that they're competitors in certain respects, insofar as they're both electric vehicles and both have their price spread constrained by the cost of batteries. But they don't directly compete with the same audience. A more reasonable direct competitor to the ID.3 is the Renault Zoe or Peugeot e-208. A more reasonable direct competitor to the Model 3 is the Polestar 2. The Model 3 and ID.3 are a full size class apart and have wildly different driving character. In BMW parlance it's M340i vs 120i. In Mercedes parlance it's C43 vs A200. It is too early to assess the relative build quality of the ID.3, though obviously VW do have strong form here and Tesla have weak form. But from a construction standpoint it's worth noting that the ID.3 is cheaply made, well below the standard of even the VW Golf. Despite the price tag, it's an economy car through and through.
- bartread 6y agoI do wonder if part of the reason is abuse by people who wanted to try a Tesla but had no intention of buying. I never did it, because I just couldn't have lived with myself[0], but about a year ago a friend and I popped into the Tesla micro-showroom in Cambridge (UK) and I realised I could order the Tesla Model S P100D with self-driving add-on - and otherwise customised to my exact preferences - for what amounts to an extended test drive and then return it no questions asked. It struck me as pretty ludicrous but I won't say I wasn't tempted. At the time the P100D was the top-end model S, and cost ~£100k. It's not a car I could realistically afford although I'm sure finance would have been approved[1], and they would simply have delivered it to my house. Then I could have driven it around for a week and just returned it: a car I had no intention of paying for in the first place. It's really not OK, but I imagine quite a few people have done it, so I can see why that might push them to a policy change, especially if baseline returns for other reasons - such as QC issues - were also high. (One day I'd still really like a Tesla but even if I could afford the one I'd most want, for that kind of money an Audi RS6 or one of the AMG estates are more practical propositions. And then for about the same money as the Model 3 there's the Volvo V60 hybrid, with 398bhp and plenty of load space. I do like Tesla so I really wish they did an estate/station wagon. Wagons are extremely handy, especially with AWD, and especially for people like me who often make use of that cargo capacity but hate SUVs and trucks due to their bulk, and overall poor economy and driving dynamics. Still, I can understand that isn't the way the market is going - shame though.) [0] Honestly, I was also worried I might want to keep it, and would come up with all sorts of justifications as to why it obviously made sense for me to put myself in a hole for a car. I ride motorbikes. I know what it feels like to go from 0 to 60 in less than 2.5 seconds. I don't need a Tesla for that, and bikes are a lot cheaper. But I was concerned that in the heat of the moment I might lose that perspective. [1] I also worry about residual values at the end of any finance deal due to the batteries and, in general, Tesla's reputation for dicey quality, high maintenance costs, and less than stellar reliability.
- dstroot 6y agoI never heard of anyone doing this. I did hear many people, myself included, who bought a Tesla and were delivered a brand new car with immediately noticeable quality issues. You are strongly pushed to “accept delivery” because a) you can always return it within 7 days, and b) Tesla will “fix everything”. Your car will not be fixed in the first seven days and will also not be able to return it. Most forums and blogs strongly encourage buyers to just refuse delivery if you find quality issues. Maybe the 7 day return policy was no longer working to get people to accept delivery.
- logicalmonster 6y agoIn retail, you know that the handful of garbage people who abuse the return policies ruin it for everybody else and eventually become why good companies ultimately go from having a very loose and customer friendly policy to a strict return policy. I’d fault tesla for not replacing the first policy with something that protects them and the customer in some way though. If customers can’t test drive their actual car before the purchase that makes it really tough to not have some kind of customer friendly return policy, whether it’s conditional or unconditional I'm not sure. But I think with their business model they would need some way to assure people when they buy.
- logicalmonster 6y agoJust thinking out loud: but maybe tesla can expand some kind of rental program so curious people can try before they buy. Or charge a daily rental fee if it’s returned within 7 days or something. Probably people curious about the tesla are the issue.
- anuila 6y agoI don’t think $1000 matches the value loss of a car that is no longer zero-miles, let alone anything less than that.
- curryst 6y agoHypothetically they only eat that loss once,though. The subsequent rentals/loaners would have much, much lower depreciation. It would have to come with the understanding that you aren't meant to purchase the exact car you rented, though. I'm not sure if that would reduce how invested people feel in it.
- gbronner 6y agoThey used to have a 24 hour rental program. Unfortunately, 4 got totalled in Manhattan (mostly because they are fragile) so they killed it
- martythemaniak 6y agoJust a friendly reminder to any neutral readers: Hacker News is hilariously anti-Tesla and you should keep this in mind while reading. Yesterday was a big day for Tesla - massive range increases across all models, including the brand-new Model Y, new interior and features for the Model 3, price drop for Model S. The top 500 posts on Hacker News contain the following unique Tesla stories: * Tesla cancels it's no-questions return policy * Tesla is against Right-To-Repair bill in MA * How to fool Tesla's autopilot with images on the road * Tesla has water cut off at Berlin factory construction site Nor should you expect to find much positive sentiment in thread comments. This level of lopsided negativity forms a feedback loop - there's little incentive for someone with a positive sentiment to expose themselves to this sort of negativity, so they stay quiet or avoid the thread. This causes the thread to become more negative, and provides even less incentive for the next person to write something. This repeats until only people who wish to be trolls or contrarians remain.
- tpmx 6y agoThere is no conspiracy against Tesla. People here pretty much universally love new great tech. Extremely few people here work at Tesla competitors. I think most of us are just tired of the endless cycle of hype/lies/exaggerations.
- martythemaniak 6y agoAn echo chamber is not a conspiracy. It's just an echo chamber.
- tpmx 6y agoFor me HN isn't a Tesla echo chamber. I very rarely read about Tesla stuff here. I follow r/RealTesla because I want to follow the company's progress. There's a much higher signal/noise ratio there than in the official subreddit, at least so far. (I also follow r/spacex - pretty high SNR too.)
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
- trhway 6y agokind of Marketing 101 - generous policies is a must in the enthusiast luxury goods segment like $100K+ Teslas several years ago while it requires very different approach in the cheapscate mass market of $40K-50K (inflated dollars of today) cars what Tesla is in today.
- offtop5 6y agoDo they offer a free test drive anywhere. It I had to guess they're starting to lose too much money and this a cost cutting method.
- LanceJones 6y agoThey report their finances quarterly, so is there a need to guess? It appears as though TSLA will hit its 5th consecutive profitable quarter.
- jeffnappi 6y agoThis is an odd decision, wouldn't be surprised if we see them walk this back. I recently purchased a Model Y - and the 7-day return policy had critical influence on my choice to purchase. It makes it clear that they want you to be happy, and that they are confident you will be. It is also a policy that I believe helps with word-of-mouth, I specifically told friends and family about the policy and I also put 900 miles on my Model Y within the first few days to be sure there were no major issues I was unhappy with. Regardless, the Model Y is fantastic, I can't wait for there to be more options like it available from all auto manufacturers.
- waterside81 6y agoHow was the build quality at pickup? Any major defects?
- jeffnappi 6y agoTwo things- there was a rattle in the rear door on the drivers side, and there was a slight misalignment of the rear hatch. Both issues were solved without issue by Tesla Service (and they provided me with a loaner Model S).