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> Lockdowns kill people Agreed. But what causes lockdowns? An uncontrolled pandemic. What does uncontrolled pandemic also cause? Collapse of healthcare infrast

> Lockdowns kill people Agreed. But what causes lockdowns? An uncontrolled pandemic. What does uncontrolled pandemic also cause? Collapse of healthcare infrastructure, which is a civil emergency that also results in countless deaths. Lockdowns, as implemented in places like the US, are a reactive measure because of a system-wide failure to adopt and maintain proactive measures needed to control things. You don’t arrive at “herd immunity” without them, but mass deaths, both from the disease and being unable to receive other routine or emergency healthcare.

rich_sasha 6y ago
I'm not demonizing lockdowns. They have a use, for sure, and they save lives. I just mean, they have their own downsides too, and we should use new data to evaluate how we implement them. It is now clear societies cannot really afford full, long-term, unconditional lockdowns. We have to pick and choose what we do, stratifying by age/health conditions seems a good way about it to me.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  Nowhere outside of places New Zealand and Taiwan has had long-term, unconditional lockdowns, and nowhere in the US has reached anywhere near this level of restrictions. I live in a state that ostensibly had “extreme” lockdowns and whole cities and communities decided themselves exempt from the orders with zero consequences. It’s also impossible to stratify people on the basis of health in the US because not everyone is cognizant of their health status or risk factors, certainly the government has no insight into these beyond the crudest levels. Age also doesn’t really work because the lack of social safety nets mean older workers have to remain employed or rely on younger cohorts in order to survive.
  - rich_sasha 6y ago
    UK put everyone who cannot work due to Covid on 80% of their salary (sort of). So surely it could do that to a smaller cohort too. That US cannot do it is no reason to not consider it.
    - claudeganon 6y ago
      Oh, certainly. Apologies for my US-centric framing. I hope the rest of the world follows South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam’s example and not our’s. South Korea has only had limited, regional lockdowns and never closed their borders. If everyone followed their examples, lockdowns would likely be unnecessary to begin with.
    - makomk 6y ago
      The UK did this once. It's probably not going to happen again, certainly not on such generous terms, and one lockdown was not enough to stop Covid - just to delay it until right on top of the winter flu season.

rich_sasha 6y ago

I'm not demonizing lockdowns. They have a use, for sure, and they save lives. I just mean, they have their own downsides too, and we should use new data to evaluate how we implement them. It is now clear societies cannot really afford full, long-term, unconditional lockdowns. We have to pick and choose what we do, stratifying by age/health conditions seems a good way about it to me.

claudeganon 6y ago
Nowhere outside of places New Zealand and Taiwan has had long-term, unconditional lockdowns, and nowhere in the US has reached anywhere near this level of restrictions. I live in a state that ostensibly had “extreme” lockdowns and whole cities and communities decided themselves exempt from the orders with zero consequences. It’s also impossible to stratify people on the basis of health in the US because not everyone is cognizant of their health status or risk factors, certainly the government has no insight into these beyond the crudest levels. Age also doesn’t really work because the lack of social safety nets mean older workers have to remain employed or rely on younger cohorts in order to survive.
- rich_sasha 6y ago
  UK put everyone who cannot work due to Covid on 80% of their salary (sort of). So surely it could do that to a smaller cohort too. That US cannot do it is no reason to not consider it.
  - claudeganon 6y ago
    Oh, certainly. Apologies for my US-centric framing. I hope the rest of the world follows South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam’s example and not our’s. South Korea has only had limited, regional lockdowns and never closed their borders. If everyone followed their examples, lockdowns would likely be unnecessary to begin with.
  - makomk 6y ago
    The UK did this once. It's probably not going to happen again, certainly not on such generous terms, and one lockdown was not enough to stop Covid - just to delay it until right on top of the winter flu season.