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Is there a reason for the fervent crypto bashing on HN? Posting an article from 2018 with many rehashed arguments is fine, I guess, but there are many interest

Is there a reason for the fervent crypto bashing on HN? Posting an article from 2018 with many rehashed arguments is fine, I guess, but there are many interesting (if not useful) things coming out of the cryptocurrency space. Of these, the standardization and development of cryptographic standards and libraries is perhaps the most applicable for the rest of the computing world.

smabie 6y ago
Who even cares, institutional investors are buying crypto, huge market making firms are trading crypto, etc. I think a lot a people would be surprised about how much volume and demand there is from "traditional" investors in crypto. Billions of dollars of volume and new exchanges popping up like wild fire. Hell, you might have exposure to crypto through a pension fund, or fund of fund, or whatever. It's here to stay.
lalaland1125 6y ago
What actually useful things are coming out of the cryptocurrency space? All I see is illegal security offerings, ransomware, child pornography, assassination markets, illegal drug trade and ponzi schemes.
- capnorange 6y ago
  You are looking at a part of crypto, it's not crypto if it doesn't enable illegal activities. Whether this double-edged sword is net positive is the real question!
  - hirako2000 6y ago
    It's an inevitable side effect. The day before the knife was discovered to slice animal flesh, someone had already killed their enemies with it.
- hirako2000 6y ago
  I buy a few totally legal things from sellers on the other side of the world who can't (be bothered to) get to transact with visa/mastercard. A lot of people can't get into a traditional bank, a lot of people are fed up with how complicated it had become to simply receive money in a timely manner, and reliably. That's whats coming out of the crypto space: a borderless payment system. It's often criminals, porn businesses, then gamer, then teens, and then the rest who adopt new good tech. It's okay,it takes some time, those who don't see the value in crypto will eventually pass away.
- alfiedotwtf 6y ago
  How much do you actually know about cryptocurrencies without parroting Fox News? ... because by your account, we should probably ban cash too
- tromp 6y ago
  Some cryptocurrencies can only send funds to a receiver by interacting with the receiver wallet. Those at least are somewhat ransom-resistant.
- cryptica 6y ago
  The real projects are being built in the background. You cannot find them right now but they will rise to the surface eventually and they will help to drive Bitcoin's value as a reserve cryptocurrency.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  DIDs are probably the most relevant. See https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/ https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/.
- fidelramos 6y ago
  Look at people being fed in Venezuela and South Sudan: https://eatbch.org/ https://eatbch.org/ Also in Venezuela there are people surviving thanks to cryptocurrencies protecting them from hyperinflation and capital controls.
eitland 6y ago
> Is there a reason for the fervent crypto bashing on HN? To prevent more ordinary people from getting scammed either by ICOs or otherwise?
alfiedotwtf 6y ago
When most people think Bitcoin, they think of a) the scary dark web, and b) the energy used to mine bitcoin is 3 countries put together which is killing us through global warming. Cryptocurrencies have moved on from 2009
- tromp 6y ago
  Well, if you're free to pick countries with low energy demands, then I'm sure it's many more than 3 countries put together.
  - alfiedotwtf 6y ago
    Yep, exactly. Wow... the Tromp. I’m blushing
isoprophlex 6y ago
For me, the crypto scene is almost irreparably damaged by its vibe of greed, the rampant scams, the ridiculous inefficiency and complexity of doing transactions, and the environmental disaster that is "proof of work". Not uniquely useful, not very interesting, full of hot air: primo bashing material.
- p2detar 6y ago
  Exactly. I still find the „proof of work“ a total waste of computational energy. I mean I believe I understand why it’s required, but it just seems like such a waste. Someone please correct me if I talk jiberish.
  - sunshinerag 6y ago
    "... I mean I believe I understand why it’s required". if you do understand why it is required, then you must understand the game theory incentives underpinning modern economics and the disaster in wasted productivity, wasted savings, livelihoods bought on by centralised monetary systems. You can think proof of work as the cost paid to eliminate all that and save money. If you think you can solve that problem (Decentralised trust) non-trivially without proof-of-work you are welcome to try.
    - p2detar 6y ago
      The only thing I learned from your comment is that wishful thinking justifies wasteful technologies. Not cool.
      - somjeed 6y ago
        it is more than wishful, it is pragmatic, as all attempts before it were shut down by very powerful forces. The purpose of PoW is to create anti-fragile, unstoppable signals using opportunity costs. How society decides to dictate those costs is up to them. Very cool.
        6y ago
detaro 6y ago
What cryptographic standards have come from cryptocurrencies? Also, instead of complaining that you don't like what's being submitted, submit good articles about what you see as positive things? Good non-marketing-fluff submissions are dearly needed.
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  >What cryptographic standards have come from cryptocurrencies? Zk-STARKS, which are fairly revolutionary and completely unknown outside magic internet money dudes. Non-trusted setup ceremonies and the newer Zk-SNARKs are also pretty much crypto-only. Bulletproofs arguably as well. Maybe verifiable delay functions; not sure of the history there. Most cryptocurrency engineering is evolutionary, and it's the combination of things (Mimble-wimble etc) that makes it worth something. On the non crypto side, there are novel consensus algorithms, interesting data structures and contributions to distributed computation in general. There's lots of social problems with blockchains, including carnival barker types overhyping things they don't understand. You could have said the same things about the internet in the 90s. The technology is pretty interesting, and making the things do useful work is one of the few actually innovative areas in software engineering right now. There's lots of obvious places for this sort of distributed, trustless database that aren't just magic internet money. DNS is an obvious one. Identity is another one. Provenance of food/wine/art is another. Pretty much any place where database disintermediation is desirable, which is almost everywhere.

smabie 6y ago

Who even cares, institutional investors are buying crypto, huge market making firms are trading crypto, etc. I think a lot a people would be surprised about how much volume and demand there is from "traditional" investors in crypto. Billions of dollars of volume and new exchanges popping up like wild fire. Hell, you might have exposure to crypto through a pension fund, or fund of fund, or whatever. It's here to stay.

lalaland1125 6y ago

What actually useful things are coming out of the cryptocurrency space? All I see is illegal security offerings, ransomware, child pornography, assassination markets, illegal drug trade and ponzi schemes.

capnorange 6y ago
You are looking at a part of crypto, it's not crypto if it doesn't enable illegal activities. Whether this double-edged sword is net positive is the real question!
- hirako2000 6y ago
  It's an inevitable side effect. The day before the knife was discovered to slice animal flesh, someone had already killed their enemies with it.
hirako2000 6y ago
I buy a few totally legal things from sellers on the other side of the world who can't (be bothered to) get to transact with visa/mastercard. A lot of people can't get into a traditional bank, a lot of people are fed up with how complicated it had become to simply receive money in a timely manner, and reliably. That's whats coming out of the crypto space: a borderless payment system. It's often criminals, porn businesses, then gamer, then teens, and then the rest who adopt new good tech. It's okay,it takes some time, those who don't see the value in crypto will eventually pass away.
alfiedotwtf 6y ago
How much do you actually know about cryptocurrencies without parroting Fox News? ... because by your account, we should probably ban cash too
tromp 6y ago
Some cryptocurrencies can only send funds to a receiver by interacting with the receiver wallet. Those at least are somewhat ransom-resistant.
cryptica 6y ago
The real projects are being built in the background. You cannot find them right now but they will rise to the surface eventually and they will help to drive Bitcoin's value as a reserve cryptocurrency.
sebmellen 6y ago
DIDs are probably the most relevant. See https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/ https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/.
fidelramos 6y ago
Look at people being fed in Venezuela and South Sudan: https://eatbch.org/ https://eatbch.org/ Also in Venezuela there are people surviving thanks to cryptocurrencies protecting them from hyperinflation and capital controls.

eitland 6y ago

> Is there a reason for the fervent crypto bashing on HN? To prevent more ordinary people from getting scammed either by ICOs or otherwise?

alfiedotwtf 6y ago

When most people think Bitcoin, they think of a) the scary dark web, and b) the energy used to mine bitcoin is 3 countries put together which is killing us through global warming. Cryptocurrencies have moved on from 2009

tromp 6y ago
Well, if you're free to pick countries with low energy demands, then I'm sure it's many more than 3 countries put together.
- alfiedotwtf 6y ago
  Yep, exactly. Wow... the Tromp. I’m blushing

isoprophlex 6y ago

For me, the crypto scene is almost irreparably damaged by its vibe of greed, the rampant scams, the ridiculous inefficiency and complexity of doing transactions, and the environmental disaster that is "proof of work". Not uniquely useful, not very interesting, full of hot air: primo bashing material.

p2detar 6y ago
Exactly. I still find the „proof of work“ a total waste of computational energy. I mean I believe I understand why it’s required, but it just seems like such a waste. Someone please correct me if I talk jiberish.
- sunshinerag 6y ago
  "... I mean I believe I understand why it’s required". if you do understand why it is required, then you must understand the game theory incentives underpinning modern economics and the disaster in wasted productivity, wasted savings, livelihoods bought on by centralised monetary systems. You can think proof of work as the cost paid to eliminate all that and save money. If you think you can solve that problem (Decentralised trust) non-trivially without proof-of-work you are welcome to try.
  - p2detar 6y ago
    The only thing I learned from your comment is that wishful thinking justifies wasteful technologies. Not cool.
    - somjeed 6y ago
      it is more than wishful, it is pragmatic, as all attempts before it were shut down by very powerful forces. The purpose of PoW is to create anti-fragile, unstoppable signals using opportunity costs. How society decides to dictate those costs is up to them. Very cool.
      - 6y ago

detaro 6y ago

What cryptographic standards have come from cryptocurrencies? Also, instead of complaining that you don't like what's being submitted, submit good articles about what you see as positive things? Good non-marketing-fluff submissions are dearly needed.

scottlocklin 6y ago
>What cryptographic standards have come from cryptocurrencies? Zk-STARKS, which are fairly revolutionary and completely unknown outside magic internet money dudes. Non-trusted setup ceremonies and the newer Zk-SNARKs are also pretty much crypto-only. Bulletproofs arguably as well. Maybe verifiable delay functions; not sure of the history there. Most cryptocurrency engineering is evolutionary, and it's the combination of things (Mimble-wimble etc) that makes it worth something. On the non crypto side, there are novel consensus algorithms, interesting data structures and contributions to distributed computation in general. There's lots of social problems with blockchains, including carnival barker types overhyping things they don't understand. You could have said the same things about the internet in the 90s. The technology is pretty interesting, and making the things do useful work is one of the few actually innovative areas in software engineering right now. There's lots of obvious places for this sort of distributed, trustless database that aren't just magic internet money. DNS is an obvious one. Identity is another one. Provenance of food/wine/art is another. Pretty much any place where database disintermediation is desirable, which is almost everywhere.