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It depends on what you mean by "genuine awareness". Anyone with a diagnosed personality disorder will of course know that they have a personality disorder. An

It depends on what you mean by "genuine awareness". Anyone with a diagnosed personality disorder will of course know that they have a personality disorder. An alcoholic might engage in behavior that matches sociopathy (lying, manipulation, irritability, etc) for various reasons (covering for their drinking, getting access to alcohol and so on). What makes it different is that the alcoholic deep down can recognize that their drinking is a problem and hence also act to mitigate their destructive behavior. A sociopath might be theoretically knowledgeable about their condition, but they can do little, if anything, to mitigate how they act and even if they know that everyone else might think something they do is wrong, they simply don't care. In other words: an alcoholic is likely to wish for not being an alcoholic, while a sociopath is likely to want to stay a sociopath. An example of this is Sam Vaknin[0], who also monetizes his personality disorder after a fashion. There's a documentary about him and his wife floating around on Youtube, "I, Psychopath". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vaknin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vaknin

tartoran 6y ago
Sam Vankin claims he is a malignant narcissist not a psycopath. He is even adamant about it. He seems very knowledgeble about the subject and found myself listening to quite a few of his rants. I also saw the documentary you mentioned and am on the fence.
- arexxbifs 6y ago
  Yes, I know he does. In the documentary he is assessed by some very knowledgeable experts and he qualifies as a psychopath. There's also comorbidity between NPD and APD and some traits also overlap.
vmception 6y ago
Was that the sound of a goal post moving? So now they know, as I suspected, but want to stay that way. While they also have to take the Turing test for us to be convinced that it’s genuine awareness Mmmmmmmk Deep down you know this is flawed, unnecessary addition, just so the rest of us can be comfortable that other people are different
jl2718 6y ago
I’ve come to believe, despite the vast majority of rhetoric exhorting otherwise, that the psychopathy traits in alcoholics are simply enabled by the alcoholism, even to the extent of developing alcoholism as an excuse. Spend enough time in AlAnon and you will see it too, but of course, the people that realize that their situation is not really about alcohol, generally stop going.
- arexxbifs 6y ago
  Not quite sure if I follow you here. The lying, deceit and manipulation I refer to as performed by otherwise psychologically stable alcoholics is different because it's usually employed to cover for the lack of control over their drinking - things like taking sick days when hungover, lying about drinking, coming up with plausible reasons for "needing a drink", and so on. Thus, unlike in ASPD alcoholics, the behavior originates from feelings of guilt, shame and remorse - which, inevitably, is "handled" with more drinking. The key difference is that in empathic alcoholics, this behavior will cease if/when they give up drinking. I used alcoholism as an example because I couldn't really think of anything apart from addiction that would make an empathic person engage in a somewhat comparable behavior for prolonged periods of time, despite feeling remorse. It's normal for all people to lie from time to time, but that's not "consciously doing sociopathic things". ASPD/NPD manifests as such a massive, sprawling, unpredictable and destructive web of manipulation, lying, gaslighting and callousness that I'd personally say it'd be impossible for an empathic, healthy person to even come up with something that mimics it.

tartoran 6y ago

Sam Vankin claims he is a malignant narcissist not a psycopath. He is even adamant about it. He seems very knowledgeble about the subject and found myself listening to quite a few of his rants. I also saw the documentary you mentioned and am on the fence.

arexxbifs 6y ago
Yes, I know he does. In the documentary he is assessed by some very knowledgeable experts and he qualifies as a psychopath. There's also comorbidity between NPD and APD and some traits also overlap.

vmception 6y ago

Was that the sound of a goal post moving? So now they know, as I suspected, but want to stay that way. While they also have to take the Turing test for us to be convinced that it’s genuine awareness Mmmmmmmk Deep down you know this is flawed, unnecessary addition, just so the rest of us can be comfortable that other people are different

jl2718 6y ago

I’ve come to believe, despite the vast majority of rhetoric exhorting otherwise, that the psychopathy traits in alcoholics are simply enabled by the alcoholism, even to the extent of developing alcoholism as an excuse. Spend enough time in AlAnon and you will see it too, but of course, the people that realize that their situation is not really about alcohol, generally stop going.

arexxbifs 6y ago
Not quite sure if I follow you here. The lying, deceit and manipulation I refer to as performed by otherwise psychologically stable alcoholics is different because it's usually employed to cover for the lack of control over their drinking - things like taking sick days when hungover, lying about drinking, coming up with plausible reasons for "needing a drink", and so on. Thus, unlike in ASPD alcoholics, the behavior originates from feelings of guilt, shame and remorse - which, inevitably, is "handled" with more drinking. The key difference is that in empathic alcoholics, this behavior will cease if/when they give up drinking. I used alcoholism as an example because I couldn't really think of anything apart from addiction that would make an empathic person engage in a somewhat comparable behavior for prolonged periods of time, despite feeling remorse. It's normal for all people to lie from time to time, but that's not "consciously doing sociopathic things". ASPD/NPD manifests as such a massive, sprawling, unpredictable and destructive web of manipulation, lying, gaslighting and callousness that I'd personally say it'd be impossible for an empathic, healthy person to even come up with something that mimics it.