4 ms·

The sadness of my piano life is not my fingers but my dumb brain. No matter how intensely I practice and memorize a piece, if I step away from it for a week I'

The sadness of my piano life is not my fingers but my dumb brain. No matter how intensely I practice and memorize a piece, if I step away from it for a week I'll forget 30% of it. Curiously, my audio memory is very strong. I can hear music in my head clearly and in detail, even songs and pieces I haven't heard in years. This does not translate to "finger-memory".

quacked 6y ago
When you practice and learn a piece, how exactly to you practice and memorize it?
- khazhoux 6y ago
  Slowly and deliberately, focusing on the parts that elude me (i.e., I'll skip the intro and other sections that are 100% solid in muscle memory). Paying attention to fingerings. I'll usually focus on 1-2 pieces at any given time. But I do go through spurts, where I practice every day but then for whatever reason step away from days or 1-2 weeks, which might be killing the neuron connections. I also round-robin my nighttime between piano, guitar, and composition, which probably ain't helping.
  - quacked 6y ago
    It definitely isn't helping, haha. I also play piano, guitar, and compose, and I used to struggle with memorizing, but I've been reading a lot of piano practicing theory and have drastically upgraded my finger memory, mostly by using these resources: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=12590.0 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=12590.0 (look for Bernhard's post) http://www.pianopractice.org/ http://www.pianopractice.org/ Loosely, stop using sheet music except when you're initially memorizing the piece, learn music in much smaller chunks than initially expected, and play entirely from memory whenever possible, even when you're practicing the repetition of something. The fact that you can remember music easily in your head means that if you spend 1-3 years really banging out the hand-brain connection, you might be able to rocket your playing forward. Raw improvisation where you think of the melody before you play it will help, too, if you don't already do that.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      Bernhard is awesome. I've learned more about piano playing and teaching from his posts than from my 'live teacher'.
      - quacked 6y ago
        I completely agree; Bernhard's posts made me realize that even professionals do not necessarily know the most efficient methods for teaching and learning, and that it may be necessary for students, even as amateurs, to challenge and seek advice beyond what their teachers are capable of, despite the existing gap in skills.
    - khazhoux 6y ago
      Thanks for the links! It'd be amazing if it's not a memory problem (at least, not any more so than for most other people who learn piano) but just have to learn a new way of connecting them neurons.
      - quacked 6y ago
        I wouldn't be surprised if you find yourself with a much greater facility for memorization. The only caveat is that it takes longer to get to the point where you can "play through" a piece, which feels less efficient than learning by sheet music, but I find that my ability to interpret and make phrasing choices with memorized music is much greater than it is with music I'm reading.
jacquesm 6y ago
I'm going to guess here and say that you are practicing a very limited repertoire, rather than to learn to play the instrument, in which case you are memorizing movements instead of music. Is that correct?
- khazhoux 6y ago
  A fine guess but actually I cycle through what I think is a pretty big range. E.g., several Denes Agay classical+romantic compilations, the standard basic Bach + Beethoven, simple Chopin, John Field, Philip Glass (repetitive patterns help), etc. Another frustrating thing is it's not just long-term finger memory that kills me, my real-time memory bus is slow when learning a piece -- the transfer of "what notes comes next" down to my fingers, just very slow and error-prone. I've tried a mental exercise where I try to only think about what to play "next" and just let what I'm playing "now" take care of itself. It kind of works and feels very different. Basically, to stay 2 beats ahead of the music at all times. Ugh, but it's still a struggle. My finger dexterity is fine. My musical knowledge is actually pretty advanced and I can play expressively and convincingly -- but only when I can remember the damn piece. My memory is like a balloon that won't stay inflated. https://www.amazon.com/Classics-Moderns-Intermediate-Grade-Millions/dp/0825640377 https://www.amazon.com/Classics-Moderns-Intermediate-Grade-M...
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    That's interesting. So, personal story time: I used to have a pretty scarily good memory. But as I get older I find that I only think that I still have a good memory. Every day there is evidence that it isn't nearly as good as it used to be and if there is anything that scares me about getting older it's that. Some parts of what you write remind me of stuff I've read about flying an airplane: never let the airplane get ahead of you. In music that would be 'never let the music get ahead of you', once it does the cognitive overload becomes overwhelming. Then: I listen a lot to the pieces that I want to play, over and over again, until I have the music in my head and then playing piano becomes a lot more like singing, instead of memorizing the movements you memorize the music and playing then becomes actual playing, you now have time and braincycles to spend on making it sound nice rather than just what to play and when. I only have a few pieces in my very limited repertoire at that level but the difference is huge with the remainder, I can make them sound in whatever way I want, I can vary them when and where I want to play variations on the entire piece by changing style and so on. That is what playing piano to me is all about and I intend to spend a lot of time on reaching that kind of proficiency with more music to broaden the range a bit. I wished I had some tip to help you, also, I'd love it if you gave the software a spin and let me know if there is a way that I can improve it so that it does help you, if that requires setting up a trial version then I'm all for it. Let me know if you're up for this. best regards, Jacques

quacked 6y ago

When you practice and learn a piece, how exactly to you practice and memorize it?

khazhoux 6y ago
Slowly and deliberately, focusing on the parts that elude me (i.e., I'll skip the intro and other sections that are 100% solid in muscle memory). Paying attention to fingerings. I'll usually focus on 1-2 pieces at any given time. But I do go through spurts, where I practice every day but then for whatever reason step away from days or 1-2 weeks, which might be killing the neuron connections. I also round-robin my nighttime between piano, guitar, and composition, which probably ain't helping.
- quacked 6y ago
  It definitely isn't helping, haha. I also play piano, guitar, and compose, and I used to struggle with memorizing, but I've been reading a lot of piano practicing theory and have drastically upgraded my finger memory, mostly by using these resources: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=12590.0 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=12590.0 (look for Bernhard's post) http://www.pianopractice.org/ http://www.pianopractice.org/ Loosely, stop using sheet music except when you're initially memorizing the piece, learn music in much smaller chunks than initially expected, and play entirely from memory whenever possible, even when you're practicing the repetition of something. The fact that you can remember music easily in your head means that if you spend 1-3 years really banging out the hand-brain connection, you might be able to rocket your playing forward. Raw improvisation where you think of the melody before you play it will help, too, if you don't already do that.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Bernhard is awesome. I've learned more about piano playing and teaching from his posts than from my 'live teacher'.
    - quacked 6y ago
      I completely agree; Bernhard's posts made me realize that even professionals do not necessarily know the most efficient methods for teaching and learning, and that it may be necessary for students, even as amateurs, to challenge and seek advice beyond what their teachers are capable of, despite the existing gap in skills.
  - khazhoux 6y ago
    Thanks for the links! It'd be amazing if it's not a memory problem (at least, not any more so than for most other people who learn piano) but just have to learn a new way of connecting them neurons.
    - quacked 6y ago
      I wouldn't be surprised if you find yourself with a much greater facility for memorization. The only caveat is that it takes longer to get to the point where you can "play through" a piece, which feels less efficient than learning by sheet music, but I find that my ability to interpret and make phrasing choices with memorized music is much greater than it is with music I'm reading.

jacquesm 6y ago

I'm going to guess here and say that you are practicing a very limited repertoire, rather than to learn to play the instrument, in which case you are memorizing movements instead of music. Is that correct?

khazhoux 6y ago
A fine guess but actually I cycle through what I think is a pretty big range. E.g., several Denes Agay classical+romantic compilations, the standard basic Bach + Beethoven, simple Chopin, John Field, Philip Glass (repetitive patterns help), etc. Another frustrating thing is it's not just long-term finger memory that kills me, my real-time memory bus is slow when learning a piece -- the transfer of "what notes comes next" down to my fingers, just very slow and error-prone. I've tried a mental exercise where I try to only think about what to play "next" and just let what I'm playing "now" take care of itself. It kind of works and feels very different. Basically, to stay 2 beats ahead of the music at all times. Ugh, but it's still a struggle. My finger dexterity is fine. My musical knowledge is actually pretty advanced and I can play expressively and convincingly -- but only when I can remember the damn piece. My memory is like a balloon that won't stay inflated. https://www.amazon.com/Classics-Moderns-Intermediate-Grade-Millions/dp/0825640377 https://www.amazon.com/Classics-Moderns-Intermediate-Grade-M...
- jacquesm 6y ago
  That's interesting. So, personal story time: I used to have a pretty scarily good memory. But as I get older I find that I only think that I still have a good memory. Every day there is evidence that it isn't nearly as good as it used to be and if there is anything that scares me about getting older it's that. Some parts of what you write remind me of stuff I've read about flying an airplane: never let the airplane get ahead of you. In music that would be 'never let the music get ahead of you', once it does the cognitive overload becomes overwhelming. Then: I listen a lot to the pieces that I want to play, over and over again, until I have the music in my head and then playing piano becomes a lot more like singing, instead of memorizing the movements you memorize the music and playing then becomes actual playing, you now have time and braincycles to spend on making it sound nice rather than just what to play and when. I only have a few pieces in my very limited repertoire at that level but the difference is huge with the remainder, I can make them sound in whatever way I want, I can vary them when and where I want to play variations on the entire piece by changing style and so on. That is what playing piano to me is all about and I intend to spend a lot of time on reaching that kind of proficiency with more music to broaden the range a bit. I wished I had some tip to help you, also, I'd love it if you gave the software a spin and let me know if there is a way that I can improve it so that it does help you, if that requires setting up a trial version then I'm all for it. Let me know if you're up for this. best regards, Jacques