6 ms·

Funny, these kind of threads sound similarly to how some companies I have worked for sound when talking about working on Saturdays: Me: Do we have to come

Funny, these kind of threads sound similarly to how some companies I have worked for sound when talking about working on Saturdays: Me: Do we have to come to work on Saturdays? Boss: You dont HAVE to... but you know, people come and do work to go the extra mile. Me: Ok, but If I don't come, there's no problem right? Boss: Well, no, there's no problem. But you know, there's lots of work and it is great when people push together. Me: Ok good, yeah I like my work and I like helping others but, I also appreciate my personal life. So... no problem if I decide not coming on Saturday right? Boss: MMhhgh yeah, no problem, but you know, we like to think you are COMMITED to our startup mission. And, then they get angry when I don't go on Saturdays. If you want me to go on Saturdays just put it in the darn contract and tell that as part of the terms when we are negotiating, then I'll walk out and we will all be happy. Same here, if the developer wanted something to happen, then he should have put it in the license. Otherwise, there's no reason to be whining that something that was NOT expected to happen (as per the license) did not happen.

petercooper 6y ago
Sure, but this is a situation about social norms rather than passive aggressive employer behavior. Typically when a product or service is released, if it's built significantly upon something else, you at least throw out a quick acknowledgement. Sure, it's not the law, it's just polite/kind/whatever nice word you prefer to use. All sorts of communities have various 'norms' of this nature which you are totally entitled to ignore but that doesn't mean they're not there.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  > Sure, but this is a situation about social norms rather than passive aggressive employer behavior. Every time I come across a thread - on any forum - where people are educating others that something is a social norm, it is because it is not. They merely want it to be. If you have a good number of people disagreeing on it, take it as a humble suggestion that norms differ across geos, industries, culture, etc. Don't insist on it, because it will come across as an imposition. Unrelated to the content in my comment above, I look at this from the same lens I look at products in my engineering world. We don't find a need to credit Claude Shannon, John Von Neumann, Tony Hoare, etc in all our products. I find this to be OK.
  - mlyle 6y ago
    > Every time I come across a thread - on any forum - where people are educating others that something is a social norm, it is because it is not. They merely want it to be. Saying "thank you" and giving credit to someone who did you a solid is pretty universally a norm. > If you have a good number of people disagreeing on it, take it as a humble suggestion that norms differ across geos, industries, culture, etc. Or, there's just the fraction of people who disregard and push back on norms. > We don't find a need to credit Claude Shannon, John Von Neumann, Tony Hoare, etc in all our products. I find this to be OK. It's a bit different here, in that the people you cite are titans who developed ideas that might be a portion of a work... which is a bit different from using the work wholesale. I don't think anyone would expect Amazon to thank/cite/acknowledge something they used that comprised 1% of a product... but when it reaches a very high proportion it's time to mention it. Further, these were academics. We do have a norm of citing them when we're deeply using and building upon their work academically.
    - BeetleB 6y ago
      > Saying "thank you" and giving credit to someone who did you a solid is pretty universally a norm. How much time have you spent looking for counterexamples in the society where you live? Where people do something for the common good and most consumers do not say "Thank you". Have you done this exercise? > Or, there's just the fraction of people who disregard and push back on norms This is a convenient, self-fulfilling narrative. It is also pitting you into an adversarial position with someone. It's highly risky to insist on a norm and accuse others of not honoring it - and then be viewed as someone who is inflexible. It's your choice, though.
      - mlyle 6y ago
        > How much time have you spent looking for counterexamples in the society where you live? I've spent a whole lot of time thinking about norms and observing their observance, enforcement, and what kinds of circumstances they tend to be disregarded. I've read a lot of the lit, too, thank you. > This is a convenient, self-fulfilling narrative. So is refusing to acknowledge the existence of norms because some people refuse to acknowledge them. Ultimately, our social reality is something we pretend into existence together. > It is also pitting you into an adversarial position with someone. It's highly risky to insist on a norm and accuse others of not honoring it - and then be viewed as someone who is inflexible. It's your choice, though. Whinging that someone broke norm A [e.g. seemed ungrateful] and thinking less of people/entities that you've heard have done the same is pretty cheap and isn't likely to earn you value judgments yourself.
marcus_holmes 6y ago
I worked for a financial organisation in Dublin for a while back in the 90's. Best attitude to this stuff I have experienced: You have 8 hours to do your work in. If you need more than that then you're either slacking off or incompetent. If you've been given more than 8 hours work to do then that's a scheduling problem you need to take up with your manager. Everyone worked their arses off all day, and at 5pm the entire office went to the pub to socialise. Some only stayed for a short time then went home. Others stayed on for hours. But staying in the office after 5pm was not acceptable. As a developer, it was great. Interruptions were always pertinent, because all the socialising happened in the pub. I could code in peace for ~8 hours, which tbh is about my limit anyway, after that my quality goes downhill fast. And then we all hung out together. Being a developer who can't do the social thing in work hours with losing massive time to context switching wasn't a social handicap, for once.
tylerhou 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ChQK8j6so8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ChQK8j6so8
- mynegation 6y ago
  Ah beat me to it! )) This movie was an instant classic.
mlyle 6y ago
So you're saying the only courtesies we should render to others in life are ones that we're duty-bound by license agreements or other contracts to give? Out with social norms and niceties, and in with black letter law? I don't want to legally demand a specific acknowledgement; I know that this can have unintended consequences and greatly complicates adoption. Also: If my stuff is used at the periphery of something you're doing, I don't really care. On the other hand, if you get to market by largely just repackaging what I've made, it seems that by social norms I'm due a hat tip, whether or not it's legally demanded.
- meddlepal 6y ago
  > So you're saying the only courtesies we should render to others in life are ones that we're duty-bound by license agreements or other contracts to give? Nothing you do for your employer as part of work should be considered "courtesy" or a "social nicety".
  - mlyle 6y ago
    The "something you do for your employer as part of work" was a strawman and doesn't relate to what we're talking about. We're talking about whether it meets social norms to take open source work, launch it as the core piece of a product, and do the absolute minimum legally required acknowledgment.
- LocalH 6y ago
  I think they’re bemoaning the fact that many employers will couch it in terms of courtesy yet also claim the right to be angry if you don’t go above what is required. It should be encouraged to do more than required, yes. But it shouldn’t be punishable if you don’t.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- craftinator 6y ago
  Yeah, as long as my company will double my pay when I ask for it as a courtesy, I'll come in on my days off as a courtesy. Tit tat

petercooper 6y ago

Sure, but this is a situation about social norms rather than passive aggressive employer behavior. Typically when a product or service is released, if it's built significantly upon something else, you at least throw out a quick acknowledgement. Sure, it's not the law, it's just polite/kind/whatever nice word you prefer to use. All sorts of communities have various 'norms' of this nature which you are totally entitled to ignore but that doesn't mean they're not there.

BeetleB 6y ago
> Sure, but this is a situation about social norms rather than passive aggressive employer behavior. Every time I come across a thread - on any forum - where people are educating others that something is a social norm, it is because it is not. They merely want it to be. If you have a good number of people disagreeing on it, take it as a humble suggestion that norms differ across geos, industries, culture, etc. Don't insist on it, because it will come across as an imposition. Unrelated to the content in my comment above, I look at this from the same lens I look at products in my engineering world. We don't find a need to credit Claude Shannon, John Von Neumann, Tony Hoare, etc in all our products. I find this to be OK.
- mlyle 6y ago
  > Every time I come across a thread - on any forum - where people are educating others that something is a social norm, it is because it is not. They merely want it to be. Saying "thank you" and giving credit to someone who did you a solid is pretty universally a norm. > If you have a good number of people disagreeing on it, take it as a humble suggestion that norms differ across geos, industries, culture, etc. Or, there's just the fraction of people who disregard and push back on norms. > We don't find a need to credit Claude Shannon, John Von Neumann, Tony Hoare, etc in all our products. I find this to be OK. It's a bit different here, in that the people you cite are titans who developed ideas that might be a portion of a work... which is a bit different from using the work wholesale. I don't think anyone would expect Amazon to thank/cite/acknowledge something they used that comprised 1% of a product... but when it reaches a very high proportion it's time to mention it. Further, these were academics. We do have a norm of citing them when we're deeply using and building upon their work academically.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    > Saying "thank you" and giving credit to someone who did you a solid is pretty universally a norm. How much time have you spent looking for counterexamples in the society where you live? Where people do something for the common good and most consumers do not say "Thank you". Have you done this exercise? > Or, there's just the fraction of people who disregard and push back on norms This is a convenient, self-fulfilling narrative. It is also pitting you into an adversarial position with someone. It's highly risky to insist on a norm and accuse others of not honoring it - and then be viewed as someone who is inflexible. It's your choice, though.
    - mlyle 6y ago
      > How much time have you spent looking for counterexamples in the society where you live? I've spent a whole lot of time thinking about norms and observing their observance, enforcement, and what kinds of circumstances they tend to be disregarded. I've read a lot of the lit, too, thank you. > This is a convenient, self-fulfilling narrative. So is refusing to acknowledge the existence of norms because some people refuse to acknowledge them. Ultimately, our social reality is something we pretend into existence together. > It is also pitting you into an adversarial position with someone. It's highly risky to insist on a norm and accuse others of not honoring it - and then be viewed as someone who is inflexible. It's your choice, though. Whinging that someone broke norm A [e.g. seemed ungrateful] and thinking less of people/entities that you've heard have done the same is pretty cheap and isn't likely to earn you value judgments yourself.

marcus_holmes 6y ago

I worked for a financial organisation in Dublin for a while back in the 90's. Best attitude to this stuff I have experienced: You have 8 hours to do your work in. If you need more than that then you're either slacking off or incompetent. If you've been given more than 8 hours work to do then that's a scheduling problem you need to take up with your manager. Everyone worked their arses off all day, and at 5pm the entire office went to the pub to socialise. Some only stayed for a short time then went home. Others stayed on for hours. But staying in the office after 5pm was not acceptable. As a developer, it was great. Interruptions were always pertinent, because all the socialising happened in the pub. I could code in peace for ~8 hours, which tbh is about my limit anyway, after that my quality goes downhill fast. And then we all hung out together. Being a developer who can't do the social thing in work hours with losing massive time to context switching wasn't a social handicap, for once.

tylerhou 6y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ChQK8j6so8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ChQK8j6so8

mynegation 6y ago
Ah beat me to it! )) This movie was an instant classic.

mlyle 6y ago

So you're saying the only courtesies we should render to others in life are ones that we're duty-bound by license agreements or other contracts to give? Out with social norms and niceties, and in with black letter law? I don't want to legally demand a specific acknowledgement; I know that this can have unintended consequences and greatly complicates adoption. Also: If my stuff is used at the periphery of something you're doing, I don't really care. On the other hand, if you get to market by largely just repackaging what I've made, it seems that by social norms I'm due a hat tip, whether or not it's legally demanded.

meddlepal 6y ago
> So you're saying the only courtesies we should render to others in life are ones that we're duty-bound by license agreements or other contracts to give? Nothing you do for your employer as part of work should be considered "courtesy" or a "social nicety".
- mlyle 6y ago
  The "something you do for your employer as part of work" was a strawman and doesn't relate to what we're talking about. We're talking about whether it meets social norms to take open source work, launch it as the core piece of a product, and do the absolute minimum legally required acknowledgment.
LocalH 6y ago
I think they’re bemoaning the fact that many employers will couch it in terms of courtesy yet also claim the right to be angry if you don’t go above what is required. It should be encouraged to do more than required, yes. But it shouldn’t be punishable if you don’t.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
craftinator 6y ago
Yeah, as long as my company will double my pay when I ask for it as a courtesy, I'll come in on my days off as a courtesy. Tit tat