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> 2. Non-propagation agreements and propagation fees are extremely common. Newer varieties of grapes almost always having a fee back to the breeder. Who is par

> 2. Non-propagation agreements and propagation fees are extremely common. Newer varieties of grapes almost always having a fee back to the breeder. Who is party to these agreements? If I am a grape researcher/breeder and buy a bag of grapes with this plastic wrapper, why would I be affected by this agreement? If the strains are patented or protected in some other way, then of course those protections would affect the end purchaser, but that is beside the point.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Nurseries agree to a propagation license from the breeder and when they sell the vines they pass a fee (usually something like $1 a vine) back to the breeder. Growers typically buy their vines from said nurseries, who try to insure virus free vines and produce in bulk and do grafting to rootstocks, etc. A breeder would not usually be affected, because they would work with pollen. If they were working with this vine as a parent (unlikely) they would probably as a courtesy reach out to the original breeder, but they'd just be taking pollen from it, so the "EULA" would not apply. There are thousands and thousands of grape varieties out there. Most consumers only ever taste a dozen. The genetic diversity bottleneck for grapes comes in general from consumers lack of education and their preferences for the same thing over and over again, usually with a fancy European sounding name so they can feel sophisticated while they drink their wine from a clone of a vine from 800 years ago that had to be sprayed with fungicides every 5 days to stop it from dying.
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  I apologize if I'm dense, but I feel like you went far astray in this answer. I'm asking who is supposedly party to this specific agreement on printed on the plastic.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Anybody who buys the grape and tries to propagate it. But I doubt the pseudo-legalese printed there is of much use. Like I've tried to say: even if it was enforceable it's somewhat pointless as almost nobody is going to be able to do this. EDIT: but yes, it has an entirely pointless vibe to it. I am not sure why the marketing of this product is bothering.
    - CogitoCogito 6y ago
      > Anybody who buys the grape and tries to propagate it. I disagree. I just don't understand how those words magically enter the recipient into an agreement. There are of course other restrictions like patents that apply to everyone regardless of random text put on some plastic, but that's another thing.
      - coldpie 6y ago
        No, protected plant varieties is a thing. It's different from patents, but roughly the same idea. https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection
        CogitoCogito 6y ago
        > No, protected plant varieties is a thing. It's different from patents, but roughly the same idea. https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection Thank you for the information, I'd never heard of this. But I also don't see how this contradicts me.
        vonmoltke 6y ago
        It's not an agreement, and both the Vice article and original Tweet are wrong to call it one. It's a statement of the law covering protected plant varieties (a.k.a plant patents). That's the contradiction.
        CogitoCogito 6y ago
        > It's not an agreement, and both the Vice article and original Tweet are wrong to call it one. It's a statement of the law covering protected plant varieties (a.k.a plant patents). That's the contradiction. How does this contradict me? The original text called it an agreement, _not_ me. My point is that it's _not_ an agreement. This is what's printed on the bag: > The recipient of the produce contained in this package agrees not to propagate or reproduce any portion of the produce, including "but not limited to" seeds, stems, tissue, and fruit. In this whole thread I'd posited that this does not mean there is any agreement between the end recipient and the producer. Now you say this contradicts me, but it sounds like you actually _agree_ with me. I also wrote this a couple posts up: > There are of course other restrictions like patents that apply to everyone regardless of random text put on some plastic, but that's another thing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24800561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24800561 I honestly don't understand your point.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

Nurseries agree to a propagation license from the breeder and when they sell the vines they pass a fee (usually something like $1 a vine) back to the breeder. Growers typically buy their vines from said nurseries, who try to insure virus free vines and produce in bulk and do grafting to rootstocks, etc. A breeder would not usually be affected, because they would work with pollen. If they were working with this vine as a parent (unlikely) they would probably as a courtesy reach out to the original breeder, but they'd just be taking pollen from it, so the "EULA" would not apply. There are thousands and thousands of grape varieties out there. Most consumers only ever taste a dozen. The genetic diversity bottleneck for grapes comes in general from consumers lack of education and their preferences for the same thing over and over again, usually with a fancy European sounding name so they can feel sophisticated while they drink their wine from a clone of a vine from 800 years ago that had to be sprayed with fungicides every 5 days to stop it from dying.

CogitoCogito 6y ago
I apologize if I'm dense, but I feel like you went far astray in this answer. I'm asking who is supposedly party to this specific agreement on printed on the plastic.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Anybody who buys the grape and tries to propagate it. But I doubt the pseudo-legalese printed there is of much use. Like I've tried to say: even if it was enforceable it's somewhat pointless as almost nobody is going to be able to do this. EDIT: but yes, it has an entirely pointless vibe to it. I am not sure why the marketing of this product is bothering.
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    > Anybody who buys the grape and tries to propagate it. I disagree. I just don't understand how those words magically enter the recipient into an agreement. There are of course other restrictions like patents that apply to everyone regardless of random text put on some plastic, but that's another thing.
    - coldpie 6y ago
      No, protected plant varieties is a thing. It's different from patents, but roughly the same idea. https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection
      - CogitoCogito 6y ago
        > No, protected plant varieties is a thing. It's different from patents, but roughly the same idea. https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/plant-variety-protection Thank you for the information, I'd never heard of this. But I also don't see how this contradicts me.
        vonmoltke 6y ago
        It's not an agreement, and both the Vice article and original Tweet are wrong to call it one. It's a statement of the law covering protected plant varieties (a.k.a plant patents). That's the contradiction.
        CogitoCogito 6y ago
        > It's not an agreement, and both the Vice article and original Tweet are wrong to call it one. It's a statement of the law covering protected plant varieties (a.k.a plant patents). That's the contradiction. How does this contradict me? The original text called it an agreement, _not_ me. My point is that it's _not_ an agreement. This is what's printed on the bag: > The recipient of the produce contained in this package agrees not to propagate or reproduce any portion of the produce, including "but not limited to" seeds, stems, tissue, and fruit. In this whole thread I'd posited that this does not mean there is any agreement between the end recipient and the producer. Now you say this contradicts me, but it sounds like you actually _agree_ with me. I also wrote this a couple posts up: > There are of course other restrictions like patents that apply to everyone regardless of random text put on some plastic, but that's another thing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24800561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24800561 I honestly don't understand your point.