4 ms·

Or it’s because we watched our sisters and daughters change from bright happy driven people to living in filth, on welfare, and becoming completely miserable in

Or it’s because we watched our sisters and daughters change from bright happy driven people to living in filth, on welfare, and becoming completely miserable in life. Drugs change people. Personal experience, mostly negative.

senorjazz 6y ago
You are confusing addiction with use. And of course, it is drug dependant. No one has their mind opened by a weekend of crack use. No one comes away the same person after a weekend of psychedelic use
- treeman79 6y ago
  None of the people I mentioned Were ever “addicted” from their point of view. Just something to help them relax. I get that some people can smoke a joint every few weeks and not have an urge to over due it. Probably 60% of extended family is hooked and either dead or living with a dead beat.
  - edjrage 6y ago
    Your comments show several common misconceptions/mischaracterizations about the topic. Whether someone is an addict or not is not about the addict's (or anyone's) opinion. Addiction and dependency are very well understood from a scientific viewpoint. It's not only “some” people that don't overdo it. A very large percentage of the population has used marijuana and yet you don't see most people in the conditions you described. I highly doubt the root problem of your 60% of extended family is drugs (assuming we're just talking about stuff like marijuana or psychedelics). If they feel like they need to relax all the time, maybe it's because they're subject to too much stress or are (maybe hereditarily) oversensitive to stressors, in which case they might need some help regardless of drug use. One last thing (but the most important), psychedelics are decidedly NOT addictive (again, following scientific definitions). In addition to not causing an urge and immediately causing tolerance that lasts for weeks, they're very well-known for ending decades-long addictions and all sorts of negative behaviors (including overuse of marijuana!). At high enough doses, they are nothing like a typical marijuana high. You really have to experience it to understand just how deeply and positively they can change one's life. Ironically enough, they might be a great option for your family to try (under proper guidance) in order to get out of their situation.
    - treeman79 6y ago
      Oh my sister tried everything there was to try. What finally got her off drugs? My parents started a custody battle to have her children taken away. That got her act together. Her husband got clean after getting 2 strikes in a 3 strike state. 25 years for his next arrest. My adopted daughter came to us because her biological mother wouldn’t get off drugs. Kept failing to pick her kids up from school.
  - sumtechguy 6y ago
    No kidding. The number of people I see that say "oh I just use it to relax" is quite high. It is a way to ignore what is in front of you and not have to deal with it. I understand the idea quite well. What twists me on all of this is the blame shaming of people who say 'do not do that junk'. When they can clearly see the chaos these choices bring. Choices are made one at a time and little choices eventually turn into big nightmares or happy times. Not everyone ends up there. But many do. I know a decent number as well. Then once lets say you get 'cleaned up'. You now have to re-learn how to cope with life. As the usage of whatever is how you used to do it. But that is no longer there. So it is quite an emotional roller coaster for everyone involved.
    - Malician 6y ago
      I don't think you're likely to get blame shamed for suggesting that opioids (especially heroin!) or crack or meth are likely to lead to a bad time. There are, though, quite a few people who reduce a whole wide range of totally different substances down to the single term "drugs" and portray everybody involved using junkie stereotypes. I don't mean to say that any substance is completely innocent: in fact, I believe that pretty much any action significant enough to have a positive result can be used in some way to create a negative one. Volatility is dangerous, and drugs often cause volatility. But total reductionism is going to get pushback.
- tcbawo 6y ago
  Someone I know was a student athlete, near valedictorian in high school and a fairly talented musician. He went off to college on the West coast nearly twenty years ago. He tried some LSD, which may have either activated and/or exacerbated schizophrenia in his brain. He never made it through college, is unable to hold a stable job, and still lives in his parents' basement. Granted nobody knows for certain whether LSD did this to my friend, but every story I read about psychedelics suggest that their use should be guided and supervised.
  - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    To be absolutely fair, though: Schizophrenia is commonly known to hit folks when they are in their late teens to early 20's - the time when folks are going to college. Any drug the person does can be seen as bringing it on. Folks suspect that the stress of college/starting life as an adult can trigger it as well. IIRC, they are pretty sure that schizophrenia is a combination of genetics and situation. I'd not say that we need to be guided and supervised (as this would just keep the black market around), but rather better informed and more research on mental disorders. The vast majority of folks that do LSD don't wind up with schizophrenia, and IIRC you have to be predisposed to schizophrenia to develop it after LSD. I'll note that it is pretty rare to develop schizophrenia later in life as well. Source: Ex developed schizo-affective disorder, later being diagnosed as schizophrenia. He was in his early 20's when diagnosed, but showed symptoms well before that I could only recognize in hindsight. I've personally done LSD more than 35 times, but completely unsure of how many times that is and that doesn't include other hallucinogens I've done. I, personally, do not have schizophrenia and am 42.
  - quickthrowman 6y ago
    > He tried some LSD, which may have either activated and/or exacerbated schizophrenia in his brain. Or perhaps being a latent schizophrenic, he was drawn to LSD/drugs in general. According to a study done in 2006[0] 90% of schizophrenics in the US used tobacco products in 2006, while only 20% of non-schizophrenic people did. How do you explain this? It’s either “schizophrenic people use drugs at a higher rate” or “tobacco causes schizophrenia”. I’d bet heavily on the former.
Timpy 6y ago
I don't want to make presumptions about your experience so I'll try to speak broadly, and if this contradicts your experience I'd be happy to have you expand my view. I think there's two categories of drugs and it's harmful to ignore the distinction. I don't know enough about the specifics of all drugs to nail down the definitions precisely but a description will suffice. One category is "psychedelic", the other is opiate. Marijuana is a federal schedule 1 drug in the US, right next to heroin. If we don't train society to differentiate between these two then unsuspecting young people who experiment with marijuana illicitly will say "all those warnings were over something harmless. I'll try heroin next." The war on drugs is perpetuating weed as a gateway to more dangerous drugs. The THC and psilocybin family has its risks in the same way that alcohol and nicotine have their risks; the opiate and methamphetamine family should not be confused or taken lightly by anybody.
- yostrovs 6y ago
  I've seen normal, rational people, even one science PhD, turn to talking gibberish when discussing the world after lsd and mushrooms. The PhD no longer believes in the fundamentals of science or basics of microbiology that he studied. Also, try to talk to a Rasta and figure out what he really believes aside of abstractions.
  - Timpy 6y ago
    If you mean they fried their brain then sure, that's bad and that's definitely one of the risks. But if it's just the Steve Jobs style "I see the world differently now" then to me it seems okay for the PhD to realign their goals because their values have changed. Of course, you can make the same argument that a heroin addicts values have changed, but the LSD isn't going to make you rob your family for your next hit.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    Had a CEO that had a grand vision of abstractions. 3 years and no one could figure out what on earth his vision was. But he was very passionate about it. Was a really nice guy, seemed fully functional, yet he completely sank his business from whatever he was taking.
pas 6y ago
Look at the big picture, which is that everything changes people. Drugs are simple to pinpoint, because they act fast and big. (Plus it's not like alcohol is illegal, yet it kills a lot of people, and the prohibition failed.) Reading books changes people, just look at how many people credit "Atlas Shrugged" as the book that started their journey to become libertarian. Similarly, we see each and every day how effective is propaganda. We see how hard it is to kill xenophobia, bigotry and other biases. But we also know how these develop, how people get radicalized by terrorist organizations. Yet the same thing happens albeit with a lower intensity and without a focused purpose when people watch/read/consume whatever the community/culture they are embedded in throws at them. 4chan changes people. QAnon changes people. The antivax hysteria changes people. Psychedelic drugs change people, yet the opioid and crack epidemics were not about LSD, they are about an alcohol++. They are about legal painkillers, yet no one is really advocating banning painkillers.

senorjazz 6y ago

You are confusing addiction with use. And of course, it is drug dependant. No one has their mind opened by a weekend of crack use. No one comes away the same person after a weekend of psychedelic use

treeman79 6y ago
None of the people I mentioned Were ever “addicted” from their point of view. Just something to help them relax. I get that some people can smoke a joint every few weeks and not have an urge to over due it. Probably 60% of extended family is hooked and either dead or living with a dead beat.
- edjrage 6y ago
  Your comments show several common misconceptions/mischaracterizations about the topic. Whether someone is an addict or not is not about the addict's (or anyone's) opinion. Addiction and dependency are very well understood from a scientific viewpoint. It's not only “some” people that don't overdo it. A very large percentage of the population has used marijuana and yet you don't see most people in the conditions you described. I highly doubt the root problem of your 60% of extended family is drugs (assuming we're just talking about stuff like marijuana or psychedelics). If they feel like they need to relax all the time, maybe it's because they're subject to too much stress or are (maybe hereditarily) oversensitive to stressors, in which case they might need some help regardless of drug use. One last thing (but the most important), psychedelics are decidedly NOT addictive (again, following scientific definitions). In addition to not causing an urge and immediately causing tolerance that lasts for weeks, they're very well-known for ending decades-long addictions and all sorts of negative behaviors (including overuse of marijuana!). At high enough doses, they are nothing like a typical marijuana high. You really have to experience it to understand just how deeply and positively they can change one's life. Ironically enough, they might be a great option for your family to try (under proper guidance) in order to get out of their situation.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    Oh my sister tried everything there was to try. What finally got her off drugs? My parents started a custody battle to have her children taken away. That got her act together. Her husband got clean after getting 2 strikes in a 3 strike state. 25 years for his next arrest. My adopted daughter came to us because her biological mother wouldn’t get off drugs. Kept failing to pick her kids up from school.
- sumtechguy 6y ago
  No kidding. The number of people I see that say "oh I just use it to relax" is quite high. It is a way to ignore what is in front of you and not have to deal with it. I understand the idea quite well. What twists me on all of this is the blame shaming of people who say 'do not do that junk'. When they can clearly see the chaos these choices bring. Choices are made one at a time and little choices eventually turn into big nightmares or happy times. Not everyone ends up there. But many do. I know a decent number as well. Then once lets say you get 'cleaned up'. You now have to re-learn how to cope with life. As the usage of whatever is how you used to do it. But that is no longer there. So it is quite an emotional roller coaster for everyone involved.
  - Malician 6y ago
    I don't think you're likely to get blame shamed for suggesting that opioids (especially heroin!) or crack or meth are likely to lead to a bad time. There are, though, quite a few people who reduce a whole wide range of totally different substances down to the single term "drugs" and portray everybody involved using junkie stereotypes. I don't mean to say that any substance is completely innocent: in fact, I believe that pretty much any action significant enough to have a positive result can be used in some way to create a negative one. Volatility is dangerous, and drugs often cause volatility. But total reductionism is going to get pushback.
tcbawo 6y ago
Someone I know was a student athlete, near valedictorian in high school and a fairly talented musician. He went off to college on the West coast nearly twenty years ago. He tried some LSD, which may have either activated and/or exacerbated schizophrenia in his brain. He never made it through college, is unable to hold a stable job, and still lives in his parents' basement. Granted nobody knows for certain whether LSD did this to my friend, but every story I read about psychedelics suggest that their use should be guided and supervised.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  To be absolutely fair, though: Schizophrenia is commonly known to hit folks when they are in their late teens to early 20's - the time when folks are going to college. Any drug the person does can be seen as bringing it on. Folks suspect that the stress of college/starting life as an adult can trigger it as well. IIRC, they are pretty sure that schizophrenia is a combination of genetics and situation. I'd not say that we need to be guided and supervised (as this would just keep the black market around), but rather better informed and more research on mental disorders. The vast majority of folks that do LSD don't wind up with schizophrenia, and IIRC you have to be predisposed to schizophrenia to develop it after LSD. I'll note that it is pretty rare to develop schizophrenia later in life as well. Source: Ex developed schizo-affective disorder, later being diagnosed as schizophrenia. He was in his early 20's when diagnosed, but showed symptoms well before that I could only recognize in hindsight. I've personally done LSD more than 35 times, but completely unsure of how many times that is and that doesn't include other hallucinogens I've done. I, personally, do not have schizophrenia and am 42.
- quickthrowman 6y ago
  > He tried some LSD, which may have either activated and/or exacerbated schizophrenia in his brain. Or perhaps being a latent schizophrenic, he was drawn to LSD/drugs in general. According to a study done in 2006[0] 90% of schizophrenics in the US used tobacco products in 2006, while only 20% of non-schizophrenic people did. How do you explain this? It’s either “schizophrenic people use drugs at a higher rate” or “tobacco causes schizophrenia”. I’d bet heavily on the former.

Timpy 6y ago

I don't want to make presumptions about your experience so I'll try to speak broadly, and if this contradicts your experience I'd be happy to have you expand my view. I think there's two categories of drugs and it's harmful to ignore the distinction. I don't know enough about the specifics of all drugs to nail down the definitions precisely but a description will suffice. One category is "psychedelic", the other is opiate. Marijuana is a federal schedule 1 drug in the US, right next to heroin. If we don't train society to differentiate between these two then unsuspecting young people who experiment with marijuana illicitly will say "all those warnings were over something harmless. I'll try heroin next." The war on drugs is perpetuating weed as a gateway to more dangerous drugs. The THC and psilocybin family has its risks in the same way that alcohol and nicotine have their risks; the opiate and methamphetamine family should not be confused or taken lightly by anybody.

yostrovs 6y ago
I've seen normal, rational people, even one science PhD, turn to talking gibberish when discussing the world after lsd and mushrooms. The PhD no longer believes in the fundamentals of science or basics of microbiology that he studied. Also, try to talk to a Rasta and figure out what he really believes aside of abstractions.
- Timpy 6y ago
  If you mean they fried their brain then sure, that's bad and that's definitely one of the risks. But if it's just the Steve Jobs style "I see the world differently now" then to me it seems okay for the PhD to realign their goals because their values have changed. Of course, you can make the same argument that a heroin addicts values have changed, but the LSD isn't going to make you rob your family for your next hit.
- treeman79 6y ago
  Had a CEO that had a grand vision of abstractions. 3 years and no one could figure out what on earth his vision was. But he was very passionate about it. Was a really nice guy, seemed fully functional, yet he completely sank his business from whatever he was taking.

pas 6y ago

Look at the big picture, which is that everything changes people. Drugs are simple to pinpoint, because they act fast and big. (Plus it's not like alcohol is illegal, yet it kills a lot of people, and the prohibition failed.) Reading books changes people, just look at how many people credit "Atlas Shrugged" as the book that started their journey to become libertarian. Similarly, we see each and every day how effective is propaganda. We see how hard it is to kill xenophobia, bigotry and other biases. But we also know how these develop, how people get radicalized by terrorist organizations. Yet the same thing happens albeit with a lower intensity and without a focused purpose when people watch/read/consume whatever the community/culture they are embedded in throws at them. 4chan changes people. QAnon changes people. The antivax hysteria changes people. Psychedelic drugs change people, yet the opioid and crack epidemics were not about LSD, they are about an alcohol++. They are about legal painkillers, yet no one is really advocating banning painkillers.